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this is Lou Elizondo and you are

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listening to that UFO podcast

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[Music]

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hi everyone and welcome back to that UFO

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podcast I am delighted to be joined by

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an award-winning author historian of

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alternative spirituality and after

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hearing him speak several times I can

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say he is one of the outstanding voices

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today on the occult esoterica and

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mysticism

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Horowitz welcome to the podcast thank

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you glad to be here it's really good to

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have you on and I do have to give a

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quick shout out to Priscilla Stone over

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at Quantum witch Cafe who just hosted

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you a few days ago as we record this uh

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she is part of the anomalous podcast

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Network that I produce please go and

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check out that interview I give

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Priscilla a follow and she is fantastic

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her interview is definitely different to

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my own her style is different to my own

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and I know she goes into some some

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details on your new book on certain

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places that we'll touch on as well so

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that is definitely worth the listen and

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I think you had a good time with

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Priscilla as well didn't you on that one

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oh very much she's a true seeker and for

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that reason the conversation flowed into

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so many different directions I don't

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think I've ever had a more satisfying

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exchange especially about controversial

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aspects of my own career because there

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are some things you can only have a rich

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exchange about with another Seeker yeah

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and she has that knowledge and interest

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and real passion for so so much of that

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conversation that she can dip into on

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that channel and it's wonderful so

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especially if you enjoy hearing midshire

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go and check that one out and also

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Priscilla's under other interviews as

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well now first off Mitch when people say

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the occult or esoteric for those who

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don't quite fully understand what those

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terms mean people like myself who go and

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Google those when I hear them just to

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double check what they mean these days

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how do you define a cult or or esoteric

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well I frequently use the term occult

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and it's simply a term that derives from

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the Latin occultist meaning secret or

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hidden it was a term that came into

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usage including in English uh in the

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early Decades of the 1500s during the

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Renaissance when

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writers thinkers Scholars translators

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clerics were attempting to describe the

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spirituality of the pre-christian world

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emanating from Egypt Rome Greece Persia

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which they were encountering for the

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first time they were discovering

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manuscripts writings techniques and

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threads and fragments of the religious

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philosophies of antiquity

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which had vanished above ground during

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their early medieval period the temple

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orders the priesthoods and so forth the

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mystery schools were gone so

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in terms of this rediscovery it was

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referenced as secret or hidden or occult

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to describe a spirituality that was

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shrouded in the midsts of antiquity for

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figures during the Renaissance so that's

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quite simply the meaning just due to

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cultural conditioning the word has

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gotten associated with things Sinister

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and such but those who who practiced

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ideas that might be classified as a cult

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for Millennia were part of nature-based

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seasonally based

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initiatory religious Traditions didn't

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view themselves in Sinister terms at all

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and wouldn't have even recognized the

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appellation and I think the term has

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historical Integrity so I've continued

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to use it yeah I was going to say in

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2022 they're still relatively

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misunderstood terms aren't they and

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there is that negative aspect of it I

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think occult and I'll be honest when I

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when I hear those words maybe less will

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never dove into some of your work and

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seeing your talks yeah immediately

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associate occult demonic you know

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rituals and it summons up certain

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imagery in your head doesn't it and what

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do you say to folks who maybe shy away

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from those terms

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well it's fascinating how our language

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changes over centuries even the word

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demonic itself the term demon in Greek

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is an entirely neutral term meaning

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spirit and it was only during

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well both late Antiquity and a backlash

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against occult experimentation during

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the Renaissance that the term demon

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began to be used to make reference to

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malevolent entities you found this late

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in biblical Antiquity you found it

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immediately in in post-biblical

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Antiquity and and that it returned as a

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backlash developed against occult

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experimentation during the Renaissance

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but our language takes on this cultural

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baggage over many many centuries and it

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seems so persuasive by force of

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familiarity that we find it difficult to

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get away from I find myself using the

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term demon and having to stop and add in

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parentheses this was a neutral term in

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its original iteration which is how I

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use it when I do

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language is very persuasive if if we as

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a culture settle around certain

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reference points and meanings the

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historic criticism gets lost and the way

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we use these terms in common

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conversation takes so deep a hold on us

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that we can't think outside of Fairly

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modern

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usages or interpretations of these terms

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but again I persist in using them

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because I don't think you can entirely

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seed a term only to its critics or only

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to those who use it as an epithet and

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quite frankly as I tell my friends on

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the alternative spiritual scene

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sometimes you can substitute in words

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like

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esoteric for a cult all you want and

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esoteric is a perfectly Noble term I use

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it all the time but if it becomes an

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Article of Faith to dispense with old

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language because it's misunderstood then

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it's going to prove a disappointing

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wager because you're going to get called

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all sorts of names anyway so you may as

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well just Embrace those terms that have

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historical Integrity explain yourself as

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best you can and March on

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I'll come back to the labeling in a

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moment in the boxing of those words and

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how they've changed over the years

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because that's something that definitely

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resonates in the UFO subject

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particularly but on that when I get

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guests coming onto the podcast their

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background usually is exclusively in the

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UFO field they've been in UFO books

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research for decades that sometimes are

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they've worked in government or or

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Academia from a UFO point of view you've

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got quite a breadth in terms of that

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you're interested in the occult the

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mysticism and the UFO subject becomes a

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part of that and that that's covered

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again like I say in your books as well

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what are some of your earliest memories

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of an interest in the UFO subject even

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if that goes back to TV shows or your

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own experiences oh sure uh when I was a

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little kid growing up in the borough of

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Queens here in New York City where I'm

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speaking from

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it was a very exciting time in the early

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to mid 70s uh the occult the esoteric

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um ESP research the UFO thesis all these

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things hung heavy in the air and it was

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very exciting to me I vividly remember

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my older sister bringing home paperbacks

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from school by Carlos Castaneda books on

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flying saucers books on Bigfoot and

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anomalies I was fascinated with folklore

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and oh I don't know I suppose you could

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say different popular mystical

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traditions and I just gobbled up these

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books from our local public library in

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the town of bellrose and where they were

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very accommodating to me and I would

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rush home to watch reruns of The

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Twilight Zone on television or Dark

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Shadows or watch daytime talk shows that

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were popular in the U.S at that time

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like Mike Douglas or Merv Griffin where

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they would interview

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astrologers or UFO researchers or Rogue

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gurus and the whole thing was just

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deeply fascinating to me all the more so

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that some of these ideas like astrology

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for example extended back to deep

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Antiquity and I was asking myself how is

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it that most people walking around today

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know their sun sign and can tell you

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something about it whether or not they

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place any stock in it how is it that

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there's a horoscope column in every

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Daily newspaper and that this has become

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part of the language of everyday life

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whereas it All Began albeit in a

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different form in ancient Mesopotamia

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how is it possible that that kind of

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religious retention would reach us

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Millennia later but it did and I wanted

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to uncover the roots of that yeah some

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folks especially younger listeners might

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be amazed to hear that star signs didn't

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always tell you the best time to put the

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lottery numbers on and uh they had they

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had very different meetings back in the

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day

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um at your talk and that you mentioned

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the conference or you live in New York

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and the conference that J Christopher

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King and James iandoli put on uh they

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were on the podcast recently they'll be

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coming back on to discuss their upcoming

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conference again in New York on December

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3rd your talk was brilliant and is

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available on YouTube it was the inquiry

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into anomalous experiences and and the

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one you were that had a few fantastic

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speakers including Gary Nolan there as

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well now you said at the beginning of

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your talk that we're living through a

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very special moment in terms of the

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conversations people have around extra

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physicality extra dimensionality and

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that there are now a few questions that

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have gone mainstream that before were

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very much considered Fringe and I'd love

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to get into that a bit more with you and

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many people are coming round to the idea

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that what people have commonly seen in

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as the past and human mentioned ESP

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ghosts UFOs Bigfoot and and such they're

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potentially less paranormal and more

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normal than we think but they might also

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be linked and I wonder how have you

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viewed those conversations merging over

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the years you mentioned sorry for this

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being long-winded but you mentioned the

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70s there and your sister bringing home

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paperbacks of UFOs you know flying

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saucers Bigfoot did you ever consider

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these were all part of the same sort of

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umbrella

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always very different to you

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it's only more recently that I've come

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to consider them as part of the same

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conversation in the past first of all in

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the past I probably would have described

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the UFO thesis as a very indirect

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relative to study of the occult the

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metaphysical the Paranormal likewise

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Cryptids like Bigfoot and so forth

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um

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my definition of the occult is

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at least it's a Gambit belief in an

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unseen dimension of existence whose

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forces can be felt on and through us and

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I feel that these conversations at this

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instant are starting to converge

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I for a long time uh resisted in

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00:11:13,970 --> 00:11:10,560
treaties from journalists and others to

278
00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:13,980
ponder the question of their their being

279
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:16,680
an occult Revival in our immediate era

280
00:11:21,769 --> 00:11:19,680
because I felt that that was always a

281
00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:21,779
news hook and it was never really an

282
00:11:27,230 --> 00:11:25,260
Earnest Reckoning uh with the manner in

283
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:27,240
which interest in the occult has really

284
00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:29,279
been an evergreen on the western scene

285
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:31,680
ever since the Renaissance it goes

286
00:11:36,650 --> 00:11:34,079
through Peaks and valleys of course went

287
00:11:38,449 --> 00:11:36,660
through a a big upsurge in the mid to

288
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:38,459
late 19th century thanks to the

289
00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:41,040
influence of people like uh elephant

290
00:11:45,769 --> 00:11:43,680
Levi and Madame h p glovatsky went

291
00:11:48,650 --> 00:11:45,779
through another upsurge during the

292
00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:48,660
Woodstock generation when all kinds of

293
00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:51,060
traditional ideas were being upended and

294
00:11:56,630 --> 00:11:53,480
people were seeking

295
00:11:58,190 --> 00:11:56,640
Insight in either Eastern ideas or in

296
00:12:01,069 --> 00:11:58,200
Western ideas that were considered

297
00:12:02,569 --> 00:12:01,079
verboten and ever since that time I

298
00:12:04,730 --> 00:12:02,579
don't think there's really been much of

299
00:12:07,250 --> 00:12:04,740
an upsurge but that has changed that has

300
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:07,260
changed very recently and it's changed

301
00:12:12,889 --> 00:12:09,120
specifically because of the

302
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:12,899
mainstreaming of the UFO thesis people

303
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:14,880
always think that well you know it's

304
00:12:18,230 --> 00:12:16,800
technology all this stuff is spreading

305
00:12:21,230 --> 00:12:18,240
over the internet and that's certainly

306
00:12:23,449 --> 00:12:21,240
true but apropos my big sister bringing

307
00:12:25,690 --> 00:12:23,459
home paperbacks from school there were

308
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:25,700
plenty of pipes through this information

309
00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:28,079
through which this information could

310
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,600
travel at an earlier time so while

311
00:12:35,810 --> 00:12:33,360
technology may have in some respects

312
00:12:38,810 --> 00:12:35,820
altered our sensibility and and and I

313
00:12:43,310 --> 00:12:38,820
would argue it has I wouldn't attribute

314
00:12:45,710 --> 00:12:43,320
that alone to the upsurge of not only

315
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:45,720
interest but mainstream interest in this

316
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:48,000
subject matter that comes as far as I

317
00:12:53,810 --> 00:12:50,160
can see from another place and that

318
00:12:57,410 --> 00:12:53,820
place is that we now have

319
00:13:01,250 --> 00:12:57,420
evidence of engineered phenomena that we

320
00:13:03,949 --> 00:13:01,260
call UFOs or uaps or what have you being

321
00:13:06,290 --> 00:13:03,959
aired talked about written about in very

322
00:13:08,509 --> 00:13:06,300
very mainstream opinion shaping places

323
00:13:11,090 --> 00:13:08,519
that's very different from when I was a

324
00:13:13,850 --> 00:13:11,100
kid from when I was a kid of course if

325
00:13:16,850 --> 00:13:13,860
you talked about UFOs somebody would say

326
00:13:19,370 --> 00:13:16,860
oh you know swamp gas Little Green Men

327
00:13:21,470 --> 00:13:19,380
You're imagining things go to the

328
00:13:24,769 --> 00:13:21,480
principal's office you know and nowadays

329
00:13:26,930 --> 00:13:24,779
of course you'd be you'd be hard-pressed

330
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:26,940
to find anyone of any real intellectual

331
00:13:32,810 --> 00:13:30,720
depth or seriousness in our culture who

332
00:13:36,050 --> 00:13:32,820
just waved off the question as if there

333
00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:36,060
isn't a deep and profound question there

334
00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:37,620
um I don't think anybody of any

335
00:13:42,350 --> 00:13:40,380
intellectual gravity would engage in

336
00:13:44,269 --> 00:13:42,360
that today and that's different from

337
00:13:47,470 --> 00:13:44,279
where things were perhaps even five

338
00:13:50,350 --> 00:13:47,480
years ago I also got to thinking as

339
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:50,360
probably this goes back to about 2019

340
00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:53,040
and and it's reflected in the first

341
00:13:57,850 --> 00:13:55,980
chapter of my book uncertain places I

342
00:14:00,470 --> 00:13:57,860
got to thinking about the

343
00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:00,480
interdimensionality thesis which Jacques

344
00:14:07,129 --> 00:14:03,360
valet has so elegantly

345
00:14:10,310 --> 00:14:07,139
depicted laid out and I got to wondering

346
00:14:12,110 --> 00:14:10,320
whether there wasn't a conversion of

347
00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:12,120
conversations

348
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:14,540
about UFOs

349
00:14:19,490 --> 00:14:17,760
academic ESP research and some of the

350
00:14:21,710 --> 00:14:19,500
most important theorizing that's coming

351
00:14:24,850 --> 00:14:21,720
out of the field of quantum mechanics

352
00:14:28,129 --> 00:14:24,860
and has for the past 80 90 years or so

353
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:28,139
and the notion to put it in the plainest

354
00:14:32,810 --> 00:14:30,240
terms is that

355
00:14:35,990 --> 00:14:32,820
an infinitude of events may be playing

356
00:14:38,269 --> 00:14:36,000
out at once and that is a logical

357
00:14:41,329 --> 00:14:38,279
conclusion that one almost has to draw

358
00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:41,339
from the implications of quantum data

359
00:14:45,710 --> 00:14:43,740
and that data by the way no longer just

360
00:14:47,930 --> 00:14:45,720
involves little particles but but

361
00:14:49,970 --> 00:14:47,940
encompasses larger objects and and

362
00:14:52,430 --> 00:14:49,980
there's a degree to which macro objects

363
00:14:55,610 --> 00:14:52,440
fit into that as well

364
00:14:58,490 --> 00:14:55,620
and that being the case it's possible

365
00:15:00,829 --> 00:14:58,500
it's possible that our psyches are

366
00:15:03,050 --> 00:15:00,839
capable of traveling among these

367
00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:03,060
different intersections of time which we

368
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:05,880
might call other dimensions we certainly

369
00:15:12,370 --> 00:15:08,639
have some evidence of that emergent from

370
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:12,380
Decades of replicable really bulletproof

371
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:15,360
statistically driven academic research

372
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:19,680
into ESP including precognition and or

373
00:15:24,170 --> 00:15:22,320
retro causation when an event from the

374
00:15:26,930 --> 00:15:24,180
so-called future affects something in

375
00:15:31,150 --> 00:15:26,940
the so-called present and so I began to

376
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:31,160
wonder if maybe maybe our theoretical

377
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:34,079
understanding of the possibility of

378
00:15:40,189 --> 00:15:37,199
encountering interdimensional events or

379
00:15:41,389 --> 00:15:40,199
intelligences is better developed at

380
00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:41,399
this point although it's still

381
00:15:47,449 --> 00:15:45,240
conceptual is better developed than our

382
00:15:51,009 --> 00:15:47,459
theoretical model of what would be

383
00:15:54,410 --> 00:15:51,019
required to travel these unfathomable

384
00:15:58,610 --> 00:15:54,420
distances that it would require for

385
00:16:00,170 --> 00:15:58,620
extraterrestrial visitors or objects to

386
00:16:01,970 --> 00:16:00,180
reach us now of course there are

387
00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:01,980
conceptual models of that as well like

388
00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:05,760
Cosmic wormholes but as far as our

389
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:09,000
theories go I think we are

390
00:16:16,329 --> 00:16:12,800
covering more ground and we have more

391
00:16:20,170 --> 00:16:16,339
developed ideas around the idea of

392
00:16:24,410 --> 00:16:20,180
interdimensionality than we do around

393
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:24,420
extraterrestriality and so my Gambit is

394
00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:26,639
that all of these things that we

395
00:16:33,470 --> 00:16:30,480
describe as anomalies whether it be the

396
00:16:35,810 --> 00:16:33,480
UFO an ET experience a Cryptid

397
00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:35,820
experience

398
00:16:39,710 --> 00:16:37,019
um

399
00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:39,720
other anomalous encounters whether it's

400
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:42,360
Poltergeist or ghost activities

401
00:16:47,530 --> 00:16:45,920
the very capacity of our own minds to

402
00:16:48,769 --> 00:16:47,540
receive information

403
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:48,779
[Music]

404
00:16:58,569 --> 00:16:55,490
receive sensory data in ways that go

405
00:17:01,850 --> 00:16:58,579
beyond understood biological or

406
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:01,860
technological faculties all of this may

407
00:17:10,189 --> 00:17:05,760
be converging to suggest that

408
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:10,199
part of the UFO puzzle

409
00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:13,679
may be individuals encountering things

410
00:17:19,250 --> 00:17:17,220
from different intersections of time

411
00:17:22,010 --> 00:17:19,260
um in the book I go through evidence

412
00:17:24,049 --> 00:17:22,020
that we have for that in ESP studies in

413
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:24,059
in quantum mechanics I also have another

414
00:17:28,250 --> 00:17:25,980
book called Daydream Believer where I

415
00:17:30,289 --> 00:17:28,260
dedicate a very substantial chapter to

416
00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:30,299
some of these questions particularly as

417
00:17:35,450 --> 00:17:32,700
they relate to ESP research so I came to

418
00:17:38,690 --> 00:17:35,460
feel that the conversation was perhaps

419
00:17:41,210 --> 00:17:38,700
starting to converge and and that

420
00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:41,220
suggests to me that we are going through

421
00:17:45,710 --> 00:17:43,140
a kind of third wave occult Revival

422
00:17:47,930 --> 00:17:45,720
today things are different

423
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:47,940
um in terms of the public discussion

424
00:17:54,409 --> 00:17:52,320
conversation the media uh that's being

425
00:17:55,909 --> 00:17:54,419
used to broadcast this conversation with

426
00:17:56,570 --> 00:17:55,919
exceptions

427
00:17:58,669 --> 00:17:56,580
um

428
00:18:01,070 --> 00:17:58,679
things are different from where we were

429
00:18:03,650 --> 00:18:01,080
just a few years ago and that is thanks

430
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:03,660
to thanks to the mainstreaming of the

431
00:18:09,289 --> 00:18:06,960
UFO thesis on behalf of Leslie Keane

432
00:18:11,150 --> 00:18:09,299
Ralph Blumenthal and and their immediate

433
00:18:13,450 --> 00:18:11,160
colleagues among other people yeah

434
00:18:16,490 --> 00:18:13,460
Helene Cooper is always the third person

435
00:18:18,529 --> 00:18:16,500
she always gets left off everyone don't

436
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:18,539
worry I was I was struggling with a

437
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:21,240
guilty heart because I thought to myself

438
00:18:27,230 --> 00:18:24,720
as I was responding

439
00:18:29,810 --> 00:18:27,240
I always include Ralph and Leslie and I

440
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:29,820
fail to include Helene's you know what

441
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:32,160
Ralph and Leslie that's not fair they

442
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:33,600
put themselves out there and they have

443
00:18:37,789 --> 00:18:35,760
done the appearances the podcast Leslie

444
00:18:39,529 --> 00:18:37,799
has her Netflix specials Ralph's been on

445
00:18:42,169 --> 00:18:39,539
this podcast several times Leslie's on

446
00:18:43,490 --> 00:18:42,179
at the end of the month Helene kept

447
00:18:45,950 --> 00:18:43,500
herself to herself she'd done the

448
00:18:48,049 --> 00:18:45,960
article and that was it she's never gone

449
00:18:49,310 --> 00:18:48,059
on further so I'm sure I'm sure she

450
00:18:52,250 --> 00:18:49,320
doesn't mind but we've got our credit

451
00:18:53,570 --> 00:18:52,260
where it's due yes I want to bring up

452
00:18:56,029 --> 00:18:53,580
the match because you mentioned the

453
00:18:58,850 --> 00:18:56,039
revivals uh of of the occult interest

454
00:19:01,610 --> 00:18:58,860
late 19th century the 1960s the

455
00:19:02,930 --> 00:19:01,620
Woodstock generation immigration changes

456
00:19:04,669 --> 00:19:02,940
I remember you mentioning was something

457
00:19:07,490 --> 00:19:04,679
in the United States which had a big

458
00:19:09,529 --> 00:19:07,500
cultural impact on those yes that made

459
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,539
me think in recent years what is the

460
00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:11,520
difference from the 19th century to the

461
00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:14,940
Woodstock to to now and there's an

462
00:19:17,930 --> 00:19:16,380
integration we have in people's lives

463
00:19:20,750 --> 00:19:17,940
that is social media and how we live

464
00:19:22,610 --> 00:19:20,760
online and we're no longer restricted to

465
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:22,620
being citizens of a physical environment

466
00:19:27,230 --> 00:19:25,679
yeah we have these your lives and we

467
00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:27,240
live in this digital world where you're

468
00:19:30,590 --> 00:19:28,980
almost you know you're holding your

469
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:30,600
phone or you're in front of a desktop

470
00:19:34,549 --> 00:19:32,880
but you you go in there don't you and

471
00:19:37,070 --> 00:19:34,559
you're almost having an avatar as such

472
00:19:39,850 --> 00:19:37,080
and we're citizens of this digital world

473
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:39,860
and what that has done is open you up

474
00:19:45,529 --> 00:19:42,720
some Sometimes good sometimes bad to

475
00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:45,539
Limitless views and opinions or the

476
00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:47,580
whole range of topics and ideologies and

477
00:19:52,190 --> 00:19:50,100
now we have this huge Melting Pot of

478
00:19:54,590 --> 00:19:52,200
ideas that before we're maybe limited to

479
00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:54,600
your your more immediate environment and

480
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:56,760
I just wonder how how do you feel that

481
00:20:02,570 --> 00:19:59,120
has changed or impacted the conversation

482
00:20:05,810 --> 00:20:02,580
that you now see such a breadth of ideas

483
00:20:08,330 --> 00:20:05,820
and does that help ease us into the idea

484
00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:08,340
that you know your cat your psyche as

485
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,600
you say can travel through different

486
00:20:13,970 --> 00:20:11,520
dimensions realities because in a way

487
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:13,980
you're traveling to other countries and

488
00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:15,840
continents in a split second in

489
00:20:20,750 --> 00:20:17,820
interacting with people or Bots

490
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:20,760
sometimes that's another another decade

491
00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:23,760
you could never have done yes and that's

492
00:20:28,330 --> 00:20:25,500
a very good point and then that's why I

493
00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:28,340
I have to be careful not to be too quick

494
00:20:35,690 --> 00:20:32,460
to exclude the technology equation from

495
00:20:38,029 --> 00:20:35,700
this third wave occult Revival

496
00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:38,039
the and and there there's so much there

497
00:20:41,930 --> 00:20:39,900
I mean we could do a whole discussion on

498
00:20:44,029 --> 00:20:41,940
that alone you know Jason lewd was

499
00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:44,039
making the point to me that in a certain

500
00:20:50,169 --> 00:20:47,520
Sense Technology digital technology is

501
00:20:53,390 --> 00:20:50,179
Magic as compared with what the

502
00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:53,400
Alchemists and and and the Sorcerers of

503
00:20:58,130 --> 00:20:56,460
both late Antiquity the Hermetic era and

504
00:21:00,830 --> 00:20:58,140
the Renaissance Era we're talking about

505
00:21:04,610 --> 00:21:00,840
the ability to project the self the

506
00:21:07,610 --> 00:21:04,620
ability to uh engage with other entities

507
00:21:11,090 --> 00:21:07,620
as you and I are doing right now across

508
00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:11,100
vast areas of time distance space and so

509
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:13,320
forth so there's so much that could be

510
00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:16,080
unpacked there but as far as the social

511
00:21:21,529 --> 00:21:18,600
impact goes look it's both good and bad

512
00:21:25,310 --> 00:21:21,539
it's good in that the searching

513
00:21:28,130 --> 00:21:25,320
individual can glean information in ways

514
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:28,140
that could never have been dreamed of a

515
00:21:33,950 --> 00:21:31,200
generation ago I dig very very deeply

516
00:21:36,649 --> 00:21:33,960
into research about topics that I care

517
00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:36,659
about at the moment and respect for

518
00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:38,580
years ahead I'm very deeply interested

519
00:21:43,850 --> 00:21:41,460
in ESP research as some of my responses

520
00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:43,860
have indicated and the wealth of

521
00:21:50,210 --> 00:21:47,340
information that I can glean in a very

522
00:21:53,690 --> 00:21:50,220
short space of time is just incredible

523
00:21:56,210 --> 00:21:53,700
and I'm grateful for it every day at the

524
00:22:00,169 --> 00:21:56,220
same time human nature is constant human

525
00:22:03,350 --> 00:22:00,179
nature hasn't changed so the voices that

526
00:22:07,010 --> 00:22:03,360
do violence to intelligent exchange have

527
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:07,020
also multiplied and the capacity to

528
00:22:12,649 --> 00:22:08,480
share information

529
00:22:14,770 --> 00:22:12,659
is wonderful but the blowback to having

530
00:22:19,430 --> 00:22:14,780
intelligent exchange

531
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,440
every bit matches uh the Splendor of of

532
00:22:25,610 --> 00:22:21,840
of of being able to share and to

533
00:22:29,450 --> 00:22:25,620
exchange the the level of discussion on

534
00:22:32,570 --> 00:22:29,460
social media is overwhelmingly poor it's

535
00:22:35,390 --> 00:22:32,580
very difficult to have any kind of

536
00:22:36,190 --> 00:22:35,400
meaningful exchange outside of sharing

537
00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:36,200
information

538
00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:37,920
it is

539
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:38,280
[Music]

540
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:39,360
um

541
00:22:45,250 --> 00:22:43,440
it a bets laziness people expect to have

542
00:22:48,169 --> 00:22:45,260
things explained to them rather than

543
00:22:50,570 --> 00:22:48,179
leaving The Ether of cyberspace and

544
00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:50,580
reading or listening to something or

545
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:52,020
what have you

546
00:22:58,310 --> 00:22:54,720
so and of course you have a

547
00:23:01,430 --> 00:22:58,320
polemical skepticism that runs Riot on

548
00:23:03,649 --> 00:23:01,440
social media that has had a deeply

549
00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:03,659
deleterious effect to some of our

550
00:23:08,930 --> 00:23:05,520
primary reference sources most

551
00:23:11,649 --> 00:23:08,940
especially Wikipedia Wikipedia is

552
00:23:15,529 --> 00:23:11,659
terrific if you want to know about the

553
00:23:18,590 --> 00:23:15,539
coastal weather you know in Finland it

554
00:23:21,230 --> 00:23:18,600
is an absolute shambles and absolute

555
00:23:26,409 --> 00:23:21,240
shambles if you want to know anything

556
00:23:29,390 --> 00:23:26,419
about uh the ESP thesis the UFO thesis

557
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:29,400
including the lives and careers of some

558
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:31,679
of the key researchers in these areas

559
00:23:37,610 --> 00:23:34,559
it's terrific for the Napoleonic Wars

560
00:23:41,149 --> 00:23:37,620
it's terrible for anything that is a

561
00:23:43,789 --> 00:23:41,159
topic of of current exchange and debate

562
00:23:45,470 --> 00:23:43,799
it's it's just been overcome in these

563
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:45,480
particular areas by a polemical

564
00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:49,440
skepticism that I don't think Wiki as a

565
00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:52,799
source is sufficiently staffed to

566
00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:55,500
editorially supervised and it's a

567
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:57,840
cultural problem I would be remiss to

568
00:24:00,890 --> 00:23:59,760
ignore the fact you've mentioned ESP a

569
00:24:02,450 --> 00:24:00,900
few times and there will be some

570
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:02,460
listeners thinking oh I talk about it

571
00:24:05,810 --> 00:24:04,500
talk about it so let's go there and

572
00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:05,820
there will also be some listeners

573
00:24:10,010 --> 00:24:07,860
thinking I've heard that term I'm going

574
00:24:12,590 --> 00:24:10,020
to guess is it still extra sensory

575
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:12,600
perception yeah that hasn't changed what

576
00:24:15,049 --> 00:24:13,919
is that if you want to just describe

577
00:24:18,529 --> 00:24:15,059
that to some of the lesson or so it

578
00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:18,539
might be unsure it's a way of receiving

579
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:22,440
and sending information that

580
00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:26,159
goes beyond any of our ordinary

581
00:24:33,049 --> 00:24:28,320
observation in terms of biology

582
00:24:34,970 --> 00:24:33,059
cognition or technology so we here in

583
00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:34,980
the United States for example and this

584
00:24:39,529 --> 00:24:36,780
is of course true in Europe and other

585
00:24:42,770 --> 00:24:39,539
parts of the world for now about 80 or

586
00:24:44,690 --> 00:24:42,780
90 years we have had a well-established

587
00:24:48,770 --> 00:24:44,700
academically based

588
00:24:50,990 --> 00:24:48,780
uh culture of parapsychology where tests

589
00:24:54,110 --> 00:24:51,000
are performed in the ability of people

590
00:25:00,110 --> 00:24:54,120
to glean information without respect to

591
00:25:04,669 --> 00:25:00,120
cognition mass time space location and

592
00:25:08,830 --> 00:25:04,679
we refer to this as as ESP it's a a

593
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:12,590
codify and catalog evidence for

594
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:15,360
cognition that goes beyond

595
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:19,200
all ordinary observation and the

596
00:25:25,570 --> 00:25:22,400
statistical evidence that we have for

597
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:25,580
ESP thought transmission

598
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:28,320
Clairvoyance precognition or what is

599
00:25:34,909 --> 00:25:31,679
sometimes also called retro causality

600
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:34,919
the statistical evidence that we have

601
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:38,400
for this material is as good as well

602
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:41,220
replicated as juried and as bulletproof

603
00:25:48,529 --> 00:25:45,360
as any that we have and it places our

604
00:25:51,230 --> 00:25:48,539
culture into a difficult spot as it has

605
00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:51,240
for several decades because we do not

606
00:25:57,710 --> 00:25:53,820
understand causation and it's very

607
00:26:01,130 --> 00:25:57,720
difficult to have data without causation

608
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:01,140
we want to know how things happen and so

609
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:04,080
the Quest for causation usually leads to

610
00:26:09,470 --> 00:26:06,720
a theory and sometimes that theory will

611
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:09,480
result in evidence being accepted that

612
00:26:13,789 --> 00:26:12,000
has previously been controversial or

613
00:26:16,090 --> 00:26:13,799
evidence being accepted that has

614
00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:16,100
previously been

615
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:18,600
misunderstood or only partially

616
00:26:23,330 --> 00:26:20,400
understood that's what happened with

617
00:26:27,049 --> 00:26:23,340
Darwin's theory of evolution we had the

618
00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:27,059
physical evidence and it was all kind of

619
00:26:41,149 --> 00:26:28,320
in

620
00:26:42,409 --> 00:26:41,159
much as just to the social circumstance

621
00:26:44,810 --> 00:26:42,419
that

622
00:26:46,610 --> 00:26:44,820
gave rise to it and gave rise to its

623
00:26:48,350 --> 00:26:46,620
acceptance

624
00:26:51,409 --> 00:26:48,360
um Sigmund Freud was very good at this

625
00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:51,419
for example he was able to gain

626
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,380
acceptance for a lot of his insights and

627
00:26:58,909 --> 00:26:57,360
he started out in his career and I would

628
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:58,919
say ended his career with a great deal

629
00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:00,960
of Sympathy for the ESP thesis something

630
00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:03,240
that is often overlooked in Freud's

631
00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:04,860
career he's often seen as an arch

632
00:27:10,430 --> 00:27:07,500
materialist and he really was not but

633
00:27:12,409 --> 00:27:10,440
what he was was a master Diplomat who

634
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,419
was capable of gaining acceptance for

635
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:14,880
his theories because he would

636
00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:17,840
acceptance for his data we'll say

637
00:27:24,590 --> 00:27:20,760
gained through the psychoanalytic method

638
00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:24,600
because he understood the necessity of

639
00:27:31,370 --> 00:27:28,380
theory within our Western model now we

640
00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:31,380
who care deeply about the ESP thesis or

641
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:33,840
the UFO thesis or both

642
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,200
we do not have an overarching Theory

643
00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:39,120
we've made some good steps in that

644
00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:41,940
direction but there's no consensus-based

645
00:27:49,850 --> 00:27:45,000
overarching Theory as you had within the

646
00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:49,860
work of a uh a Freud or uh an Einstein

647
00:27:57,649 --> 00:27:53,580
or a Louis Pasteur uh or Darwin for that

648
00:28:00,350 --> 00:27:57,659
matter and modernity Demands a theory so

649
00:28:02,149 --> 00:28:00,360
we're in a tough spot and that's okay

650
00:28:04,430 --> 00:28:02,159
there's nothing wrong with being in a

651
00:28:07,610 --> 00:28:04,440
tough spot it can make you better

652
00:28:11,690 --> 00:28:07,620
and and what we have

653
00:28:15,230 --> 00:28:11,700
is data that

654
00:28:18,710 --> 00:28:15,240
in some cases is accepted in some cases

655
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:18,720
is not accepted and we struggle to apply

656
00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:22,320
the implications of that data we have

657
00:28:27,310 --> 00:28:25,080
certain Fields here in the west that are

658
00:28:30,169 --> 00:28:27,320
widely accepted ones like

659
00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:30,179
neuroplasticity which demonstrates their

660
00:28:34,130 --> 00:28:32,340
brain scans that the gray matter of your

661
00:28:36,350 --> 00:28:34,140
brain the cellular matter of your brain

662
00:28:38,390 --> 00:28:36,360
will actually undergo changes based on

663
00:28:40,970 --> 00:28:38,400
thought and everyone accepts those

664
00:28:42,769 --> 00:28:40,980
findings because they're so Bulletproof

665
00:28:44,269 --> 00:28:42,779
what they don't accept is the

666
00:28:46,190 --> 00:28:44,279
implications because the implications

667
00:28:48,049 --> 00:28:46,200
are mind over matter and those

668
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:48,059
implications are a place that we are

669
00:28:52,970 --> 00:28:50,880
educated in the west not to go we live

670
00:28:55,490 --> 00:28:52,980
under philosophical materialism where

671
00:28:58,250 --> 00:28:55,500
everything is a strict need cause and

672
00:29:00,289 --> 00:28:58,260
effect based on familiar Newtonian

673
00:29:02,210 --> 00:29:00,299
physics and anything that departs from

674
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:02,220
that is considered

675
00:29:08,529 --> 00:29:04,640
going off into the margin somewhere

676
00:29:12,649 --> 00:29:08,539
we're in a tougher spot with respect to

677
00:29:14,570 --> 00:29:12,659
uh UFO and ESP research excuse me

678
00:29:16,789 --> 00:29:14,580
because we have data

679
00:29:20,930 --> 00:29:16,799
but we don't have a model

680
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:20,940
yet and so the response

681
00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:23,760
that's healthy and that's positive in my

682
00:29:28,130 --> 00:29:25,679
estimation is to say okay we have the

683
00:29:30,649 --> 00:29:28,140
data let's keep Gathering data and let's

684
00:29:32,029 --> 00:29:30,659
work on a Model see where we get see

685
00:29:34,909 --> 00:29:32,039
what we do

686
00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:34,919
whereas the polemical Skeptics

687
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:37,260
they will just say no no no no they'll

688
00:29:42,529 --> 00:29:38,880
throw out the evidence altogether they

689
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:42,539
have this secular religion that runs

690
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:45,600
counter to anything that goes outside

691
00:29:50,029 --> 00:29:47,760
the parameters the philosophical

692
00:29:53,889 --> 00:29:50,039
materialism which holds that common

693
00:29:57,049 --> 00:29:53,899
observation more or less rules the day

694
00:29:59,930 --> 00:29:57,059
implications are dancing you off into

695
00:30:03,769 --> 00:29:59,940
Fairyland or something and that matter

696
00:30:06,350 --> 00:30:03,779
creates itself and that all phenomena is

697
00:30:07,370 --> 00:30:06,360
a result of

698
00:30:10,370 --> 00:30:07,380
um

699
00:30:12,649 --> 00:30:10,380
chemical processes biological processes

700
00:30:14,510 --> 00:30:12,659
cognition motor skill and Newtonian

701
00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:14,520
physics and anything that goes outside

702
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,340
of that is unaccepted even in the face

703
00:30:21,230 --> 00:30:19,440
of evidence and that's the intellectual

704
00:30:24,409 --> 00:30:21,240
Poverty of our era it's not the only

705
00:30:28,909 --> 00:30:24,419
problem we have to be sure but it is a

706
00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:28,919
problem and that problem of being unable

707
00:30:33,950 --> 00:30:32,760
to accept evidence even when it's

708
00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:33,960
gathered according to the most

709
00:30:38,269 --> 00:30:36,000
impeccable standards which is the case

710
00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:38,279
with a good deal of academically based

711
00:30:42,769 --> 00:30:40,380
ESP research and I make reference that

712
00:30:45,169 --> 00:30:42,779
only because it's an area of Deep

713
00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:45,179
commitment

714
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:47,460
um that problem of not accepting

715
00:30:50,029 --> 00:30:49,440
evidence due to

716
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:50,039
um

717
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:52,320
both

718
00:30:56,210 --> 00:30:54,240
um the prejudices of materialist

719
00:30:58,490 --> 00:30:56,220
philosophy which has held Sway in the

720
00:30:59,870 --> 00:30:58,500
western world for about 300 years it

721
00:31:03,470 --> 00:30:59,880
ain't a Prejudice that's going to go

722
00:31:05,450 --> 00:31:03,480
away easily and at least to critics who

723
00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:05,460
are capable of intelligently discussing

724
00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:07,500
it the problem of lacking a theory which

725
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:09,960
is the problem is a legit problem it

726
00:31:13,730 --> 00:31:12,000
doesn't mean you smash Galileo's

727
00:31:16,269 --> 00:31:13,740
telescope it doesn't mean you burn the

728
00:31:19,570 --> 00:31:16,279
fleet that doesn't mean you discontinue

729
00:31:22,610 --> 00:31:19,580
Discovery it's a totally impoverished

730
00:31:25,130 --> 00:31:22,620
response to this material and that's one

731
00:31:27,710 --> 00:31:25,140
of the problems that we face today I'm

732
00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:27,720
glad you mentioned Galileo because uh an

733
00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:28,980
argument I often bring up that

734
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:30,899
frustrates me greatly and I think speaks

735
00:31:34,850 --> 00:31:32,520
to what you're saying about about this

736
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:34,860
skepticism and throwing away you know

737
00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:36,480
ideas in spite of the evidences

738
00:31:42,169 --> 00:31:39,240
Professor Brian Cox here in the UK very

739
00:31:44,990 --> 00:31:42,179
well respected physicist he's on the BBC

740
00:31:47,510 --> 00:31:45,000
quite a lot he does spoken word tours he

741
00:31:49,310 --> 00:31:47,520
he often speaks down about the UFO

742
00:31:51,889 --> 00:31:49,320
subject and the possibility of alien

743
00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:51,899
life and spite of the the evidence the

744
00:31:56,690 --> 00:31:54,480
testimony out there Professor Brian Cox

745
00:31:58,510 --> 00:31:56,700
will also on his shows often cite that

746
00:32:01,490 --> 00:31:58,520
Galileo as one of his great Heroes

747
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:01,500
Galileo himself during his time was

748
00:32:05,630 --> 00:32:04,080
house under house arrest because his his

749
00:32:08,330 --> 00:32:05,640
colleagues and peers all the time

750
00:32:09,769 --> 00:32:08,340
thought his ideas were so wild that they

751
00:32:12,110 --> 00:32:09,779
must be wrong even though he had

752
00:32:16,010 --> 00:32:12,120
evidence he had proof

753
00:32:17,990 --> 00:32:16,020
um and I see Professor Brian Cox doesn't

754
00:32:20,750 --> 00:32:18,000
see the you know the irony and

755
00:32:23,210 --> 00:32:20,760
he being so dismissive of the UFO topic

756
00:32:25,370 --> 00:32:23,220
that I hope and see one day being much

757
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:25,380
more of the normal because people like

758
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:27,360
him could get involved and really help

759
00:32:31,490 --> 00:32:29,279
push this conversation forward is it

760
00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:31,500
just that that Human Condition you see

761
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:33,320
this this won't go away anytime soon

762
00:32:39,049 --> 00:32:36,480
that even respected intelligent

763
00:32:42,289 --> 00:32:39,059
individuals like a professor Brian Cox

764
00:32:44,450 --> 00:32:42,299
and holding up Heroes like Galileo won't

765
00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:44,460
see how they're being dismissive of what

766
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,799
the UFO conversation how they are and it

767
00:32:50,570 --> 00:32:48,000
could be the greatest scientific

768
00:32:52,010 --> 00:32:50,580
discovery of all time you know finding

769
00:32:54,470 --> 00:32:52,020
something else out there they don't want

770
00:32:57,049 --> 00:32:54,480
to be involved in that discovery

771
00:32:59,389 --> 00:32:57,059
it's fascinating you cannot invent these

772
00:33:02,570 --> 00:32:59,399
ironies you cannot invent these ironies

773
00:33:04,730 --> 00:33:02,580
and if you were to have a relaxed

774
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:04,740
conversation in private and say to him

775
00:33:11,510 --> 00:33:07,919
don't you see how heroizing Galileo

776
00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:11,520
while talking down a radical thesis is

777
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:14,820
in contradiction I suspect just based on

778
00:33:18,649 --> 00:33:16,559
human nature it's true of me it's true

779
00:33:20,930 --> 00:33:18,659
of all of us it wouldn't even penetrate

780
00:33:25,250 --> 00:33:20,940
it wouldn't even get through we as a

781
00:33:30,529 --> 00:33:27,049
a Brokenness

782
00:33:32,210 --> 00:33:30,539
an inability to permit in contradictions

783
00:33:34,909 --> 00:33:32,220
including in our own psychology

784
00:33:36,350 --> 00:33:34,919
including in our own approach and this

785
00:33:40,370 --> 00:33:36,360
is true

786
00:33:42,830 --> 00:33:40,380
across the human situation may I be so

787
00:33:44,570 --> 00:33:42,840
fortunate as to see it in myself as

788
00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:44,580
easily as I'm able to see it in

789
00:33:49,789 --> 00:33:46,740
Professor Cox

790
00:33:53,090 --> 00:33:49,799
um we can often see it in others and not

791
00:33:58,250 --> 00:33:53,100
see it in ourselves and it is a human

792
00:34:00,590 --> 00:33:58,260
problem and I hope I hope in my own work

793
00:34:03,889 --> 00:34:00,600
I am not succumbing to that myself

794
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:03,899
because I recognize that it's just part

795
00:34:08,869 --> 00:34:06,000
of the human situation that when we get

796
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:08,879
turned on to a certain thesis or we

797
00:34:12,829 --> 00:34:11,040
declare ourselves in agreement with

798
00:34:15,470 --> 00:34:12,839
something which can be a very emotional

799
00:34:17,210 --> 00:34:15,480
decision we all want a world in which we

800
00:34:19,129 --> 00:34:17,220
feel safe we all want a world that's

801
00:34:20,750 --> 00:34:19,139
somewhat familiar none of us want to

802
00:34:23,450 --> 00:34:20,760
wake up Thursday morning and discover

803
00:34:25,970 --> 00:34:23,460
that our Paradigm has been shattered

804
00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:25,980
none of us really want that We crave

805
00:34:31,790 --> 00:34:29,580
familiarity We crave sameness and we

806
00:34:35,089 --> 00:34:31,800
glean information that way as well so

807
00:34:37,609 --> 00:34:35,099
shame on me if I'm succumbing to that in

808
00:34:41,089 --> 00:34:37,619
my own work I have to be really really

809
00:34:44,089 --> 00:34:41,099
careful of that that is why I want there

810
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:44,099
to be a healthy skeptical apparatus

811
00:34:49,970 --> 00:34:46,800
William Blake wrote In The Marriage of

812
00:34:52,849 --> 00:34:49,980
Heaven and Hell in 1790 opposition is

813
00:34:56,389 --> 00:34:52,859
true friendship it's really worth living

814
00:35:00,109 --> 00:34:56,399
with that maxim of Blakes

815
00:35:02,810 --> 00:35:00,119
we do not Advance unless we meet with

816
00:35:05,630 --> 00:35:02,820
friction unless we meet with barriers

817
00:35:08,829 --> 00:35:05,640
I want there to be can a capable

818
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:08,839
committed responsible dedicated Skeptics

819
00:35:13,790 --> 00:35:11,460
I want there to be people who will tell

820
00:35:16,490 --> 00:35:13,800
me where I'm wrong who believe that I am

821
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:16,500
wrong and who will debate me

822
00:35:21,050 --> 00:35:18,000
intelligently

823
00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:21,060
from which I can only benefit from which

824
00:35:26,270 --> 00:35:23,160
I can only benefit

825
00:35:29,810 --> 00:35:26,280
I give a lot of presentations and I am

826
00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:29,820
only human and from time to time I am

827
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:31,500
going to make a mistake in those

828
00:35:37,310 --> 00:35:34,560
presentations I have never once I hope

829
00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:37,320
failed to get better

830
00:35:41,390 --> 00:35:39,480
um for that mistake being pointed out

831
00:35:44,450 --> 00:35:41,400
sometimes by people who are not friends

832
00:35:46,190 --> 00:35:44,460
of mine but nonetheless

833
00:35:47,870 --> 00:35:46,200
um in fact Emerson wrote that there's no

834
00:35:49,790 --> 00:35:47,880
greater plague on us than our friends

835
00:35:52,550 --> 00:35:49,800
they allow us to sleep we want

836
00:35:54,349 --> 00:35:52,560
adversaries but those adversaries have

837
00:35:56,030 --> 00:35:54,359
to be people who know what they're

838
00:35:59,329 --> 00:35:56,040
talking about who are dedicated to

839
00:36:01,790 --> 00:35:59,339
Serious exchange and who don't just

840
00:36:04,430 --> 00:36:01,800
throw over the chess board if the game

841
00:36:06,650 --> 00:36:04,440
is going against them it has to be about

842
00:36:09,589 --> 00:36:06,660
more than that so I'm also very

843
00:36:12,530 --> 00:36:09,599
concerned about the paucity of real

844
00:36:15,290 --> 00:36:12,540
intellectual depth within the Skeptics

845
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,300
Community you mentioned and I suppose

846
00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:17,280
well I hope this is a good example of it

847
00:36:21,530 --> 00:36:18,780
you mentioned Leslie K and Ralph

848
00:36:23,089 --> 00:36:21,540
Blumenthal Helene Cooper and and I know

849
00:36:25,849 --> 00:36:23,099
Leslie and Ralph have worked on several

850
00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:25,859
articles for the New York Times on on

851
00:36:31,970 --> 00:36:29,520
various UFO UAP related issues recently

852
00:36:34,730 --> 00:36:31,980
a counter article to that has gone up on

853
00:36:36,349 --> 00:36:34,740
the New York Times by Julian Barnes and

854
00:36:38,810 --> 00:36:36,359
a bit of a

855
00:36:41,150 --> 00:36:38,820
a fire stalking headline declaring most

856
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:41,160
UFO reports are clutter or Airborne

857
00:36:46,730 --> 00:36:43,920
trash now that's spat in the face of

858
00:36:49,130 --> 00:36:46,740
much of the UFO Community are fans of

859
00:36:51,650 --> 00:36:49,140
the conversation you know Die Hard UFO

860
00:36:53,150 --> 00:36:51,660
enthusiasts and I can see why I'd like

861
00:36:55,069 --> 00:36:53,160
to think as much as I'm a fan of the

862
00:36:56,990 --> 00:36:55,079
subject I can also take a step back and

863
00:36:59,810 --> 00:36:57,000
just view things I've learned that in my

864
00:37:01,970 --> 00:36:59,820
job in just life in general do you think

865
00:37:03,589 --> 00:37:01,980
there's as much bias on both sides of

866
00:37:06,170 --> 00:37:03,599
the fence that you can just I think

867
00:37:08,270 --> 00:37:06,180
you've said as much they are you get so

868
00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:08,280
stuck and ingrained in your argument

869
00:37:13,310 --> 00:37:11,160
that you can't see the middle ground and

870
00:37:15,470 --> 00:37:13,320
there are people who are are Gatekeepers

871
00:37:17,390 --> 00:37:15,480
of the subject almost who who won't

872
00:37:19,609 --> 00:37:17,400
allow a skeptical eye now I'm not saying

873
00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:19,619
Julian bonds I feel he was very biased

874
00:37:25,310 --> 00:37:22,140
and the article he wrote and even in his

875
00:37:26,569 --> 00:37:25,320
writing that oh 150 or so cases have

876
00:37:28,190 --> 00:37:26,579
been solved yeah but what about the

877
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:28,200
other half that haven't you know you're

878
00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:29,520
just ignore you're leaving that out and

879
00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:31,260
you talked about cherry picking data

880
00:37:36,410 --> 00:37:33,839
with the ESP research very much the same

881
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:36,420
thing whereas that happy medium how do

882
00:37:40,910 --> 00:37:38,160
we arrive at a place where you do have

883
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:40,920
healthy skeptical debate but also you

884
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,960
know UFO enthusiasts on the other side

885
00:37:47,569 --> 00:37:44,640
and you could you can have that

886
00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:47,579
conversation how do we get there

887
00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:48,780
right

888
00:37:55,490 --> 00:37:52,140
I wondered honestly if we can get there

889
00:37:58,370 --> 00:37:55,500
because humanity is so tribalist and so

890
00:38:00,410 --> 00:37:58,380
emotional in its decision making and we

891
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,420
in the west at least are trained to

892
00:38:03,950 --> 00:38:02,400
think in opposite something is true or

893
00:38:08,089 --> 00:38:03,960
something is false and that probably

894
00:38:10,970 --> 00:38:08,099
stems from Aristotle and that's not

895
00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:10,980
helpful in times like ours we live in

896
00:38:15,290 --> 00:38:13,020
uncertain places whether we like it or

897
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:15,300
not and there are things that are going

898
00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:17,280
to be unintelligible there are things

899
00:38:23,329 --> 00:38:19,740
that have to be sustained as a question

900
00:38:25,310 --> 00:38:23,339
and the true false polarity makes it

901
00:38:27,890 --> 00:38:25,320
very difficult sometimes to sustain

902
00:38:30,589 --> 00:38:27,900
questions and to have meaningful debate

903
00:38:32,690 --> 00:38:30,599
it hobbles us not only in the areas that

904
00:38:35,210 --> 00:38:32,700
we're talking about but it hobbles Us in

905
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:35,220
policy making as well you know here in

906
00:38:40,030 --> 00:38:37,440
the United States we have a shambles of

907
00:38:42,589 --> 00:38:40,040
a Health Care Health Insurance system

908
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,599
that many many people are dissatisfied

909
00:38:45,710 --> 00:38:44,400
with but we can't do anything about it

910
00:38:48,530 --> 00:38:45,720
because every time we start talking

911
00:38:49,970 --> 00:38:48,540
about it emotions hold Sway and all

912
00:38:52,250 --> 00:38:49,980
we're really talking about is the

913
00:38:55,310 --> 00:38:52,260
delivery system there's got to be a

914
00:38:57,050 --> 00:38:55,320
better delivery system so let's try to

915
00:38:58,730 --> 00:38:57,060
find this better delivery system but

916
00:39:00,710 --> 00:38:58,740
that simple exchange is rendered

917
00:39:04,250 --> 00:39:00,720
impossible even though the majority of

918
00:39:06,050 --> 00:39:04,260
people care about it because of emotions

919
00:39:08,030 --> 00:39:06,060
um and also because of a kind of

920
00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:08,040
tribalism where as soon as we settle on

921
00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:10,079
an emotionally held position we feel

922
00:39:14,210 --> 00:39:12,540
threatened by anybody who doesn't hold

923
00:39:16,130 --> 00:39:14,220
that same position and we think there

924
00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:16,140
must be something that they're not

925
00:39:20,030 --> 00:39:18,180
telling us they're using this as a smoke

926
00:39:22,430 --> 00:39:20,040
screen for something else that's one of

927
00:39:24,109 --> 00:39:22,440
the reasons why I try to use very blunt

928
00:39:25,790 --> 00:39:24,119
language and I try to be very

929
00:39:28,329 --> 00:39:25,800
transparent

930
00:39:31,730 --> 00:39:28,339
um apparently uh I'm I'm not always

931
00:39:34,609 --> 00:39:31,740
successful according to the lights of uh

932
00:39:39,770 --> 00:39:34,619
those who see themselves as set into the

933
00:39:44,349 --> 00:39:39,780
opposite position from my own but I I do

934
00:39:49,250 --> 00:39:47,089
indirectness we need to be very direct

935
00:39:51,950 --> 00:39:49,260
it seems to me about what we stand for

936
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:51,960
what we believe in for example I refer

937
00:39:56,750 --> 00:39:54,480
to myself as a believing historian and

938
00:39:59,750 --> 00:39:56,760
I'm very disclosing of that because I

939
00:40:02,329 --> 00:39:59,760
want people to realize that I do emerge

940
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:02,339
from and interact with some of the very

941
00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:04,079
movements that I write about and I think

942
00:40:08,690 --> 00:40:06,720
rather than compromising one's critique

943
00:40:10,670 --> 00:40:08,700
that can enrich one's critique because

944
00:40:11,810 --> 00:40:10,680
you're at the center of things and you

945
00:40:18,950 --> 00:40:11,820
can see

946
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:18,960
maybe you can understand the values that

947
00:40:23,569 --> 00:40:21,599
emanate from certain movements how those

948
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:23,579
values fall short there's an intimacy

949
00:40:31,130 --> 00:40:26,720
that can enrich documentation

950
00:40:34,609 --> 00:40:31,140
so I think transparency of all players

951
00:40:36,829 --> 00:40:34,619
is important it's it's very important

952
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:36,839
whether it will go the distance in

953
00:40:41,450 --> 00:40:38,400
Bridging the Gap that you've rightly

954
00:40:43,730 --> 00:40:41,460
described I do not know uh now with

955
00:40:47,630 --> 00:40:43,740
regard to this uh New York Times

956
00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:47,640
situation where we have uh Helene Ralph

957
00:40:52,190 --> 00:40:50,040
and Leslie perhaps one could put it

958
00:40:55,370 --> 00:40:52,200
standing off to one side and a Julian

959
00:40:56,810 --> 00:40:55,380
Barnes standing off to other to another

960
00:40:58,490 --> 00:40:56,820
you know maybe that's not a fair

961
00:41:01,250 --> 00:40:58,500
formulation but for the sake of

962
00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:01,260
generalism I'll make it

963
00:41:05,870 --> 00:41:04,079
um I was just interviewing uh my old

964
00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:05,880
friend Whitley strieber before we got on

965
00:41:10,370 --> 00:41:07,920
together which I mentioned

966
00:41:12,530 --> 00:41:10,380
um I'm part of a UFO Film Festival here

967
00:41:14,270 --> 00:41:12,540
in New York City and and we're showing

968
00:41:16,190 --> 00:41:14,280
communion and another movie of which

969
00:41:19,609 --> 00:41:16,200
Whitley was apart so we were talking

970
00:41:22,310 --> 00:41:19,619
largely about film but this very topic

971
00:41:24,890 --> 00:41:22,320
came up and Whitley said something that

972
00:41:27,770 --> 00:41:24,900
I'll repeat I agree with it entirely he

973
00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:27,780
said look you know when

974
00:41:34,250 --> 00:41:31,680
the the the the Cooper Blumenthal Keen

975
00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:34,260
article made it to the front page or the

976
00:41:38,450 --> 00:41:36,660
New York Times it was a miracle it was

977
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:38,460
an extraordinary breakthrough and it

978
00:41:44,030 --> 00:41:41,280
really was I mean there were antecedents

979
00:41:46,130 --> 00:41:44,040
to that but that was the Bell sounding

980
00:41:48,290 --> 00:41:46,140
that issued the UFO thesis into the

981
00:41:50,690 --> 00:41:48,300
mainstream and it's since repeated in

982
00:41:52,250 --> 00:41:50,700
other widely read and opinion shaping

983
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:52,260
media including the New Yorker for

984
00:41:57,290 --> 00:41:53,280
example

985
00:41:59,870 --> 00:41:57,300
so then we're all waiting for the other

986
00:42:02,870 --> 00:41:59,880
shoe to drop and out comes Julian Barnes

987
00:42:06,410 --> 00:42:02,880
article saying well most of it according

988
00:42:08,569 --> 00:42:06,420
to my interviews is Just Junk and or a

989
00:42:10,010 --> 00:42:08,579
Chinese drone or what have you and

990
00:42:12,530 --> 00:42:10,020
there's a couple of things to unpack

991
00:42:15,050 --> 00:42:12,540
there the first is we have to be very

992
00:42:16,609 --> 00:42:15,060
careful as you were alluding with the

993
00:42:18,410 --> 00:42:16,619
word most

994
00:42:20,750 --> 00:42:18,420
um because

995
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:20,760
um if one were to apply the standard of

996
00:42:27,770 --> 00:42:25,200
of of most uh we would have some

997
00:42:29,569 --> 00:42:27,780
extraordinary evidence that doesn't get

998
00:42:32,089 --> 00:42:29,579
considered

999
00:42:34,310 --> 00:42:32,099
um there's a meta-analysis that was

1000
00:42:36,290 --> 00:42:34,320
recently published of precognition

1001
00:42:38,930 --> 00:42:36,300
experiments that were done at Cornell

1002
00:42:41,810 --> 00:42:38,940
University well most of the replications

1003
00:42:42,970 --> 00:42:41,820
didn't work but those replications that

1004
00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:42,980
did work

1005
00:42:48,170 --> 00:42:46,560
surpassed The Benchmark for statistical

1006
00:42:51,010 --> 00:42:48,180
significance according to the

1007
00:42:54,349 --> 00:42:51,020
methodology by which we conduct

1008
00:42:56,990 --> 00:42:54,359
meta-analyzes so most is a very tricky

1009
00:42:59,809 --> 00:42:57,000
word as a friend of mine Robert shock

1010
00:43:02,510 --> 00:42:59,819
puts it he's a geologist at Boston

1011
00:43:04,250 --> 00:43:02,520
University something only has to be a

1012
00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:04,260
little bit true in order to change

1013
00:43:10,190 --> 00:43:06,720
everything so you could say I've

1014
00:43:13,069 --> 00:43:10,200
investigated 100 episodes of so-called

1015
00:43:14,930 --> 00:43:13,079
Poltergeist activity and most were

1016
00:43:16,730 --> 00:43:14,940
mistakes it's like let's talk about that

1017
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:16,740
other five percent you know let's start

1018
00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:19,440
digging there I mean that's where the

1019
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,740
Explorer goes that's where there's

1020
00:43:26,690 --> 00:43:24,720
something around the corner and we don't

1021
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:26,700
know what it is and we have to go there

1022
00:43:31,870 --> 00:43:29,760
so most is a tricky thing now Whitley

1023
00:43:35,210 --> 00:43:31,880
pointed out to me that

1024
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:35,220
when these unnamed military sources tell

1025
00:43:38,809 --> 00:43:37,920
barns for example that

1026
00:43:41,390 --> 00:43:38,819
um

1027
00:43:45,950 --> 00:43:41,400
some of these sightings that might exist

1028
00:43:46,990 --> 00:43:45,960
on video or radar or other methods of

1029
00:43:49,490 --> 00:43:47,000
measurement

1030
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:49,500
are nothing but

1031
00:43:58,010 --> 00:43:55,440
uh proposed Chinese drones well that

1032
00:44:01,670 --> 00:43:58,020
doesn't Encompass the historical and

1033
00:44:04,670 --> 00:44:01,680
Technical record because we have the US

1034
00:44:08,870 --> 00:44:04,680
military for example has documented

1035
00:44:10,329 --> 00:44:08,880
flight patterns going back to 1947 that

1036
00:44:13,490 --> 00:44:10,339
share

1037
00:44:17,230 --> 00:44:13,500
significant commonalities with the

1038
00:44:21,109 --> 00:44:17,240
flight patterns of that more reasonably

1039
00:44:23,530 --> 00:44:21,119
recently released data so if there's a

1040
00:44:28,309 --> 00:44:23,540
congruency of flight patterns between

1041
00:44:30,650 --> 00:44:28,319
1947 data and 21st century data that

1042
00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:30,660
obviously calls into question the

1043
00:44:36,170 --> 00:44:34,079
Chinese drone uh thesis because we're

1044
00:44:38,750 --> 00:44:36,180
seeing flight patterns back at a time

1045
00:44:40,370 --> 00:44:38,760
when there were no such thing as drones

1046
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:40,380
and

1047
00:44:43,970 --> 00:44:42,000
they're

1048
00:44:47,210 --> 00:44:43,980
these are the issues that are going to

1049
00:44:49,250 --> 00:44:47,220
fuel this debate and this is why we get

1050
00:44:52,609 --> 00:44:49,260
into this kind of intellectual trench

1051
00:44:54,589 --> 00:44:52,619
warfare because current authorities say

1052
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:54,599
something it gets reported in a

1053
00:45:00,829 --> 00:44:58,800
prominent place and then those who are

1054
00:45:02,990 --> 00:45:00,839
deeply dedicated say well that's a

1055
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:03,000
historical that's simply a historical

1056
00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:05,040
that doesn't cover the basis of

1057
00:45:09,470 --> 00:45:07,140
commonality between these objects and

1058
00:45:11,770 --> 00:45:09,480
objects from Generations ago that

1059
00:45:15,470 --> 00:45:11,780
predate the technology that you're using

1060
00:45:16,910 --> 00:45:15,480
as an off-ramp from taking seriously the

1061
00:45:19,309 --> 00:45:16,920
UFO thesis

1062
00:45:22,490 --> 00:45:19,319
now

1063
00:45:24,290 --> 00:45:22,500
this debate for such reasons is going to

1064
00:45:27,530 --> 00:45:24,300
drag on

1065
00:45:29,630 --> 00:45:27,540
um I presume that most of us myself

1066
00:45:32,990 --> 00:45:29,640
included and I have to be really careful

1067
00:45:37,250 --> 00:45:33,000
about this we propose a thesis and we

1068
00:45:39,170 --> 00:45:37,260
often find uh evidence for that thesis

1069
00:45:41,329 --> 00:45:39,180
and

1070
00:45:43,609 --> 00:45:41,339
social scientists love to call it

1071
00:45:45,770 --> 00:45:43,619
confirmation bias they throw around that

1072
00:45:47,630 --> 00:45:45,780
term it's just a term for prejudice we

1073
00:45:49,849 --> 00:45:47,640
all suffer from it including the people

1074
00:45:52,370 --> 00:45:49,859
who use that term themselves to dispel

1075
00:45:53,690 --> 00:45:52,380
legitimate evidence which I suppose is

1076
00:45:55,970 --> 00:45:53,700
um

1077
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:55,980
indicative of its validity but people

1078
00:46:03,290 --> 00:45:59,760
never apply it back to themselves so I I

1079
00:46:05,630 --> 00:46:03,300
read that article and the Barnes article

1080
00:46:07,490 --> 00:46:05,640
and I thought that morning that I read

1081
00:46:08,990 --> 00:46:07,500
it about sharing it on social media

1082
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:09,000
because I thought well look you know

1083
00:46:13,250 --> 00:46:11,280
it's just a something that's on the

1084
00:46:14,930 --> 00:46:13,260
public agenda go ahead and share it I'm

1085
00:46:17,450 --> 00:46:14,940
not endorsing it one way or the other

1086
00:46:18,890 --> 00:46:17,460
but I opted against sharing it because I

1087
00:46:21,290 --> 00:46:18,900
thought you know there's a background

1088
00:46:24,290 --> 00:46:21,300
conversation here that needs to occur

1089
00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:24,300
and that background conversation is part

1090
00:46:27,650 --> 00:46:25,920
of what you and I are doing it's part of

1091
00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:27,660
the exchange I just had with Whitley

1092
00:46:31,849 --> 00:46:29,940
which which will which will be published

1093
00:46:34,329 --> 00:46:31,859
soon there are of course much more

1094
00:46:38,450 --> 00:46:34,339
intensive and deeper exchanges going on

1095
00:46:39,230 --> 00:46:38,460
and one thing I will add is this

1096
00:46:41,930 --> 00:46:39,240
um

1097
00:46:43,550 --> 00:46:41,940
at the anomalous experiences conference

1098
00:46:45,470 --> 00:46:43,560
here in New York a couple of weeks ago

1099
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:45,480
Gary Nolan made a very important point

1100
00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:48,480
that I think is worth amplifying He was

1101
00:46:51,530 --> 00:46:50,280
asked by a member of the audience about

1102
00:46:54,829 --> 00:46:51,540
the

1103
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:54,839
efforts of people in government people

1104
00:47:01,250 --> 00:46:58,800
on the military to stymie disclosure and

1105
00:47:02,990 --> 00:47:01,260
Gary said and I think this is is very

1106
00:47:04,730 --> 00:47:03,000
important and I think this is the kind

1107
00:47:05,930 --> 00:47:04,740
of thing that helps leaven the

1108
00:47:08,829 --> 00:47:05,940
discussion

1109
00:47:11,809 --> 00:47:08,839
he said look you know there are people

1110
00:47:13,490 --> 00:47:11,819
in government in military in

1111
00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:13,500
intelligence services

1112
00:47:19,130 --> 00:47:16,380
who do want to stymie disclosure

1113
00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:19,140
absolutely there are also whistleblowers

1114
00:47:24,829 --> 00:47:22,260
who release documents who release facts

1115
00:47:26,930 --> 00:47:24,839
and figures why there are whistleblowers

1116
00:47:29,569 --> 00:47:26,940
for as many reasons as there are people

1117
00:47:31,250 --> 00:47:29,579
we have them in corporations we have

1118
00:47:33,829 --> 00:47:31,260
them in media we have them in government

1119
00:47:35,809 --> 00:47:33,839
we have them in finance there are a lot

1120
00:47:37,309 --> 00:47:35,819
of injustices that wouldn't be brought

1121
00:47:39,890 --> 00:47:37,319
to light if it were not for

1122
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:39,900
whistleblowers so you have both

1123
00:47:46,670 --> 00:47:43,200
Tendencies those who seek to suppress

1124
00:47:49,970 --> 00:47:46,680
information those who seek to disclose

1125
00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:49,980
or render public information and both

1126
00:47:55,069 --> 00:47:52,980
things are are going on at once and um

1127
00:47:58,309 --> 00:47:55,079
you know with respect to the Barnes

1128
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,319
article I just don't know enough to

1129
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:00,480
um offer further supposition but I

1130
00:48:07,130 --> 00:48:02,880
thought Ralph's statement

1131
00:48:08,750 --> 00:48:07,140
um uh Gary's statement was valuable yeah

1132
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:08,760
and I think you're right around that

1133
00:48:13,609 --> 00:48:12,240
word most was if I approach Mr Barnes

1134
00:48:14,990 --> 00:48:13,619
and threw a hundred lottery tickets at

1135
00:48:17,569 --> 00:48:15,000
him and said most of those aren't

1136
00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:17,579
Powerball or jackpot winning tickets I'm

1137
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:18,960
sure they would do his research and dig

1138
00:48:22,609 --> 00:48:20,160
through every one of those tickets to

1139
00:48:24,530 --> 00:48:22,619
find the ones that were right and right

1140
00:48:27,589 --> 00:48:24,540
same with the ESP conversation remote

1141
00:48:30,650 --> 00:48:27,599
viewing Bigfoot UFOs we're only looking

1142
00:48:33,770 --> 00:48:30,660
for that one concrete bang that it is

1143
00:48:35,630 --> 00:48:33,780
and that may not even exist it may be

1144
00:48:36,530 --> 00:48:35,640
the weight of evidence that has to come

1145
00:48:38,089 --> 00:48:36,540
up

1146
00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:38,099
um but yeah that that's that's what

1147
00:48:43,069 --> 00:48:39,839
troubled me most about it it was kind of

1148
00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:43,079
disappointing you you you said something

1149
00:48:48,770 --> 00:48:45,180
that I loved in your talk that was

1150
00:48:50,569 --> 00:48:48,780
testimony over time becomes a record and

1151
00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:50,579
many will argue that testimony

1152
00:48:54,290 --> 00:48:52,740
especially in the UFO conversation as

1153
00:48:56,870 --> 00:48:54,300
I'm sure it is for much of what the

1154
00:48:59,210 --> 00:48:56,880
esoteric as you see or the occult is is

1155
00:49:00,890 --> 00:48:59,220
dismissed because it's not a video or a

1156
00:49:01,910 --> 00:49:00,900
photograph when even those get argued

1157
00:49:03,650 --> 00:49:01,920
over

1158
00:49:05,650 --> 00:49:03,660
did you think

1159
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:05,660
at this point

1160
00:49:11,450 --> 00:49:08,640
testimony is enough for any of those

1161
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:11,460
conversations we hear a lot of stories

1162
00:49:16,730 --> 00:49:14,160
and testimony from pilots from citizens

1163
00:49:18,650 --> 00:49:16,740
from from airline pilots from you know

1164
00:49:21,770 --> 00:49:18,660
medical people from people in government

1165
00:49:24,829 --> 00:49:21,780
about the UFOs or experiences they've

1166
00:49:27,410 --> 00:49:24,839
had what weight do you put on testimony

1167
00:49:30,710 --> 00:49:27,420
in the immediacy as being valuable

1168
00:49:32,690 --> 00:49:30,720
evidence well I'm very influenced by the

1169
00:49:35,690 --> 00:49:32,700
philosopher William James he was my

1170
00:49:37,069 --> 00:49:35,700
intellectual hero and James back in his

1171
00:49:38,569 --> 00:49:37,079
era and we're still having the same

1172
00:49:41,390 --> 00:49:38,579
arguments today

1173
00:49:43,609 --> 00:49:41,400
he deeply valued testimony he felt

1174
00:49:47,390 --> 00:49:43,619
testimony uh

1175
00:49:49,010 --> 00:49:47,400
is empiricism uh particularly when we're

1176
00:49:50,930 --> 00:49:49,020
talking about the well-being of the

1177
00:49:54,410 --> 00:49:50,940
individual what else other than

1178
00:49:59,329 --> 00:49:54,420
testimony do we have to go on

1179
00:50:04,010 --> 00:49:59,339
um in some respects entire swaths of our

1180
00:50:05,870 --> 00:50:04,020
body of medicine uh pertaining to mental

1181
00:50:09,109 --> 00:50:05,880
and emotional health but also pertaining

1182
00:50:11,870 --> 00:50:09,119
to individual pain is

1183
00:50:14,530 --> 00:50:11,880
based in testimony

1184
00:50:19,370 --> 00:50:14,540
um the placebo response is based in

1185
00:50:21,410 --> 00:50:19,380
testimony uh so many fields that are

1186
00:50:22,609 --> 00:50:21,420
Fields today

1187
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:22,619
um

1188
00:50:30,109 --> 00:50:25,760
including exploration itself

1189
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:30,119
began as as testimony testimony over

1190
00:50:36,290 --> 00:50:32,880
time becomes record and we're able to

1191
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,300
use it to navigate and to determine some

1192
00:50:41,210 --> 00:50:38,880
reasonable iteration of reality I think

1193
00:50:42,770 --> 00:50:41,220
I joked in the talk what is the

1194
00:50:45,589 --> 00:50:42,780
difference between testimony and

1195
00:50:48,410 --> 00:50:45,599
anecdote the belief of the Observer you

1196
00:50:51,770 --> 00:50:48,420
know uh people love to use the term

1197
00:50:54,290 --> 00:50:51,780
anecdote as a dismissal and that was

1198
00:50:56,450 --> 00:50:54,300
true in the Victorian age as well and

1199
00:51:00,109 --> 00:50:56,460
James uh who was the father of

1200
00:51:03,170 --> 00:51:00,119
pragmatism and positivism or the search

1201
00:51:07,430 --> 00:51:03,180
for causality he had

1202
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:07,440
a tremendous uh brief against the

1203
00:51:13,370 --> 00:51:10,319
dismissal of so-called anecdote because

1204
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:13,380
it it it's our only empiricism when

1205
00:51:17,030 --> 00:51:15,599
we're talking about perceptions of life

1206
00:51:19,210 --> 00:51:17,040
including

1207
00:51:22,670 --> 00:51:19,220
our own medical

1208
00:51:25,609 --> 00:51:22,680
well-being and in in many respects not

1209
00:51:28,030 --> 00:51:25,619
all but many and

1210
00:51:31,609 --> 00:51:28,040
if we

1211
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:31,619
dismissed testimony

1212
00:51:36,650 --> 00:51:33,839
um we not only neglect record but it

1213
00:51:39,370 --> 00:51:36,660
just becomes a device at a certain point

1214
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:39,380
so if we had no physical evidence

1215
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:43,920
whatsoever for the ESP uh thesis and and

1216
00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:46,559
we do but if we had none

1217
00:51:52,670 --> 00:51:49,200
uh that record of testimony would still

1218
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:52,680
be valuable it's it's it's a record and

1219
00:52:00,770 --> 00:51:57,119
it's coming from people who are trained

1220
00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:00,780
to observe aerial phenomena uh such

1221
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:03,599
people will also make mistakes but over

1222
00:52:10,730 --> 00:52:06,480
the course of decades and decades and

1223
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:10,740
decades where there is a Confluence of

1224
00:52:18,490 --> 00:52:15,119
recorded detail where there is a

1225
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:18,500
convergence of experience

1226
00:52:23,170 --> 00:52:22,319
data eyewitness account to neglect that

1227
00:52:26,270 --> 00:52:23,180
record

1228
00:52:28,849 --> 00:52:26,280
would be almost to neglect a mountain

1229
00:52:30,829 --> 00:52:28,859
that's right in front of us but that

1230
00:52:33,290 --> 00:52:30,839
we're perhaps not able to reach out and

1231
00:52:35,690 --> 00:52:33,300
immediately touch so it's extremely

1232
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:35,700
important it's not all we have but it's

1233
00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:38,880
it's extremely important in fact

1234
00:52:43,309 --> 00:52:40,800
um my friend Jeff greipel at Rice

1235
00:52:46,190 --> 00:52:43,319
University who I love and who has been a

1236
00:52:48,530 --> 00:52:46,200
mentor to me has criticized me and quite

1237
00:52:50,990 --> 00:52:48,540
rightly for being excessively attached

1238
00:52:53,630 --> 00:52:51,000
to the laboratory model when it comes to

1239
00:52:56,930 --> 00:52:53,640
ESP and Clairvoyance and telepathy and

1240
00:52:59,210 --> 00:52:56,940
such for whatever reasons I gravitate

1241
00:53:02,990 --> 00:52:59,220
towards the laboratory model that may be

1242
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:03,000
because I deeply admire

1243
00:53:08,210 --> 00:53:05,520
um a man named JB Ryan who was the

1244
00:53:10,730 --> 00:53:08,220
founder of parapsychology as an academic

1245
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:10,740
science here in the United States

1246
00:53:16,250 --> 00:53:14,640
a JB is an intellectual hero to me uh JB

1247
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:16,260
was very attached to the laboratory

1248
00:53:21,049 --> 00:53:18,480
model it may be that my affections for

1249
00:53:24,890 --> 00:53:21,059
him are such that I have gotten into

1250
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:24,900
that Groove and Jeff argues that if you

1251
00:53:30,530 --> 00:53:27,599
want the ESP effect to go away the best

1252
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,540
place to go is in the linoleum tile

1253
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:32,960
white coat lab

1254
00:53:39,650 --> 00:53:36,000
with electrodes and so on and so forth

1255
00:53:41,150 --> 00:53:39,660
and tedium setting in and repetition and

1256
00:53:44,750 --> 00:53:41,160
they said you know it's like going to

1257
00:53:46,430 --> 00:53:44,760
the North Pole to look for zebras now of

1258
00:53:48,170 --> 00:53:46,440
course we do have evidence that comes

1259
00:53:49,690 --> 00:53:48,180
from the laboratory model but he feels

1260
00:53:52,849 --> 00:53:49,700
that better evidence comes from

1261
00:53:54,890 --> 00:53:52,859
testimony more steady more reliable more

1262
00:53:56,690 --> 00:53:54,900
remarkable evidence comes from testimony

1263
00:53:59,230 --> 00:53:56,700
so

1264
00:54:01,790 --> 00:53:59,240
I write about this in Daydream Believer

1265
00:54:04,490 --> 00:54:01,800
I may be

1266
00:54:06,410 --> 00:54:04,500
well Jeff believes that we have reached

1267
00:54:09,290 --> 00:54:06,420
the limits of what we can discover about

1268
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:09,300
ESP in a lab setting I'm not sure that's

1269
00:54:15,470 --> 00:54:12,240
the case but I recognize his criticisms

1270
00:54:17,930 --> 00:54:15,480
that I and others are so attached to

1271
00:54:19,609 --> 00:54:17,940
that model that maybe that's one of the

1272
00:54:22,010 --> 00:54:19,619
reasons why the ball never seems to move

1273
00:54:24,290 --> 00:54:22,020
down the field yeah so at least in

1274
00:54:28,970 --> 00:54:24,300
admitting Tito and confirmation bias as

1275
00:54:30,109 --> 00:54:28,980
you said before we try we try yeah I

1276
00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:30,119
want to get to some lesson our questions

1277
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:32,040
before we finish up but just before we

1278
00:54:35,329 --> 00:54:33,599
do and obviously we've mentioned that

1279
00:54:37,549 --> 00:54:35,339
Julian bonds New York Times article

1280
00:54:38,990 --> 00:54:37,559
you've spoken about the article that

1281
00:54:41,450 --> 00:54:39,000
occurred in the New York Times in

1282
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:41,460
December 2017 that Leslie Ralph and

1283
00:54:45,770 --> 00:54:43,680
Helene wrote that opened a Floodgate to

1284
00:54:47,450 --> 00:54:45,780
the mainstream media and I think it

1285
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:47,460
knocked open a door that never quite

1286
00:54:52,250 --> 00:54:49,440
closed which is great and it's allowed

1287
00:54:54,470 --> 00:54:52,260
the UFO UFO conversation to manifest in

1288
00:54:56,210 --> 00:54:54,480
a more serious way and it's made its way

1289
00:54:58,970 --> 00:54:56,220
through science and Academia people like

1290
00:55:01,730 --> 00:54:58,980
Avi lueb at Harvard being involved in

1291
00:55:04,970 --> 00:55:01,740
getting serious funding NASA now being

1292
00:55:06,829 --> 00:55:04,980
of the UAP task force publishing reports

1293
00:55:09,530 --> 00:55:06,839
albeit as we record this it's still

1294
00:55:11,089 --> 00:55:09,540
delayed from the 31st of October you've

1295
00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:11,099
mentioned that these moments don't occur

1296
00:55:16,010 --> 00:55:13,200
in isolation and that they tend to have

1297
00:55:18,470 --> 00:55:16,020
follow-on events as well and I wonder

1298
00:55:20,510 --> 00:55:18,480
what do you think are based on your

1299
00:55:22,670 --> 00:55:20,520
other research in other areas where do

1300
00:55:25,430 --> 00:55:22,680
you see the conversation with UFOs going

1301
00:55:27,650 --> 00:55:25,440
in the mainstream this time is there any

1302
00:55:30,170 --> 00:55:27,660
precedent for what you think may happen

1303
00:55:31,549 --> 00:55:30,180
or could happen in the coming months and

1304
00:55:33,890 --> 00:55:31,559
years

1305
00:55:35,390 --> 00:55:33,900
wow that's a good question

1306
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:35,400
um

1307
00:55:41,870 --> 00:55:39,359
first of all a lot of our efforts to

1308
00:55:44,089 --> 00:55:41,880
gain knowledge are tied to funding

1309
00:55:47,329 --> 00:55:44,099
people have to be able to fund these

1310
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:47,339
things uh we have the catastrophic loss

1311
00:55:53,450 --> 00:55:50,640
of the Arecibo telescope system in

1312
00:55:55,250 --> 00:55:53,460
Puerto Rico uh a couple of years ago

1313
00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:55,260
where it collapsed I was fortunate

1314
00:55:58,849 --> 00:55:56,640
enough to visit it just about a year

1315
00:56:00,710 --> 00:55:58,859
before the collapse

1316
00:56:02,750 --> 00:56:00,720
um there's money to rebuild it there's

1317
00:56:06,589 --> 00:56:02,760
not money to maintain it it's a terrible

1318
00:56:09,710 --> 00:56:06,599
situation unfortunately it's a loss and

1319
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:09,720
the the the funding situation for ESP

1320
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:12,240
research has been really tough over the

1321
00:56:18,650 --> 00:56:15,119
past 30 40 years or so partly

1322
00:56:20,270 --> 00:56:18,660
as a marker of the success of the

1323
00:56:22,970 --> 00:56:20,280
professional Skeptics movement they've

1324
00:56:25,190 --> 00:56:22,980
they've helped uh kind of paint ESP

1325
00:56:26,569 --> 00:56:25,200
research with a Scarlet Letter so that

1326
00:56:28,069 --> 00:56:26,579
people are afraid to perform it they're

1327
00:56:30,589 --> 00:56:28,079
afraid to fund it they're afraid to

1328
00:56:34,250 --> 00:56:30,599
write about it I'm not an academic so I

1329
00:56:35,630 --> 00:56:34,260
don't face those same problems precisely

1330
00:56:38,329 --> 00:56:35,640
um

1331
00:56:40,609 --> 00:56:38,339
funding needs to be there whether it

1332
00:56:43,609 --> 00:56:40,619
comes from institutions whether it comes

1333
00:56:45,410 --> 00:56:43,619
from individuals hopefully the

1334
00:56:48,349 --> 00:56:45,420
mainstreaming of some of these questions

1335
00:56:51,530 --> 00:56:48,359
will loosen up the funding atmosphere

1336
00:56:53,930 --> 00:56:51,540
it's asking so much of a researcher to

1337
00:56:56,750 --> 00:56:53,940
write Grant proposals and to do his or

1338
00:56:59,870 --> 00:56:56,760
her research whereas they're both entire

1339
00:57:04,549 --> 00:56:59,880
careers in and of themselves

1340
00:57:09,230 --> 00:57:07,190
I couldn't Venture you know honestly I I

1341
00:57:12,470 --> 00:57:09,240
couldn't Venture I'd be engaged in pure

1342
00:57:14,270 --> 00:57:12,480
speculation Whitley for his part and and

1343
00:57:17,870 --> 00:57:14,280
I'm referencing the conversation he and

1344
00:57:19,730 --> 00:57:17,880
I just had before you and I got together

1345
00:57:21,589 --> 00:57:19,740
he believes that we're going to go

1346
00:57:24,049 --> 00:57:21,599
backwards he believes that the counter

1347
00:57:26,089 --> 00:57:24,059
voices are going to come in and and and

1348
00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:26,099
we're going to see more articles like

1349
00:57:29,890 --> 00:57:28,079
the Barnes one and and we're just going

1350
00:57:34,190 --> 00:57:29,900
to take a step backwards

1351
00:57:36,890 --> 00:57:34,200
and that's certainly true I I don't have

1352
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:36,900
very much faith in human nature

1353
00:57:42,049 --> 00:57:37,920
um

1354
00:57:46,309 --> 00:57:42,059
but the cultural rollback might not be

1355
00:57:48,049 --> 00:57:46,319
as Extreme as all that because it seems

1356
00:57:50,450 --> 00:57:48,059
to me that

1357
00:57:53,150 --> 00:57:50,460
public belief in something is not a

1358
00:57:55,730 --> 00:57:53,160
valid measure of Truth the the public on

1359
00:57:57,290 --> 00:57:55,740
mass has believed horrible things over

1360
00:58:01,010 --> 00:57:57,300
the course of Millennia and will

1361
00:58:04,250 --> 00:58:01,020
continue to nonetheless nonetheless the

1362
00:58:07,609 --> 00:58:04,260
ability of the public to sustain books

1363
00:58:11,630 --> 00:58:07,619
funding podcasts like this one research

1364
00:58:15,349 --> 00:58:11,640
it does make a difference now six months

1365
00:58:17,690 --> 00:58:15,359
ago I was not really involved in the UFO

1366
00:58:19,849 --> 00:58:17,700
question but I was invited to the

1367
00:58:22,069 --> 00:58:19,859
anomalous experiences conference I'm

1368
00:58:25,250 --> 00:58:22,079
grateful for that invitation I had been

1369
00:58:28,370 --> 00:58:25,260
thinking heavily about UFOs ever since

1370
00:58:30,290 --> 00:58:28,380
the 2017 coverage that you referenced

1371
00:58:32,930 --> 00:58:30,300
started thinking about it again because

1372
00:58:35,569 --> 00:58:32,940
in the summer of 2019 the Guggenheim

1373
00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:35,579
Museum here in New York City held a

1374
00:58:39,470 --> 00:58:37,440
standing room only panel discussion on

1375
00:58:42,410 --> 00:58:39,480
the UFO question and it was it was a

1376
00:58:44,270 --> 00:58:42,420
moment it was really a moment and it was

1377
00:58:47,630 --> 00:58:44,280
a panel discussion of very very high

1378
00:58:49,609 --> 00:58:47,640
quality and at that time I started

1379
00:58:51,530 --> 00:58:49,619
thinking about these things more fully

1380
00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:51,540
in connection with my own work and so I

1381
00:58:55,730 --> 00:58:54,240
become kind of an in-law to the UFO

1382
00:58:57,770 --> 00:58:55,740
Community you know I'm the guy who

1383
00:59:02,089 --> 00:58:57,780
visits for Christmas or Thanksgiving

1384
00:59:03,890 --> 00:59:02,099
depending where you live and um and so

1385
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:03,900
there's a change you know there's a

1386
00:59:08,270 --> 00:59:05,520
change in my own life

1387
00:59:10,309 --> 00:59:08,280
um six months ago you and I might not

1388
00:59:12,049 --> 00:59:10,319
have even known one another uh but but

1389
00:59:13,789 --> 00:59:12,059
now we know one another and we can

1390
00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:13,799
compare notes and we can talk about this

1391
00:59:17,809 --> 00:59:14,880
so

1392
00:59:20,210 --> 00:59:17,819
I have to believe that culturally

1393
00:59:22,130 --> 00:59:20,220
culturally this opening is gonna is

1394
00:59:24,289 --> 00:59:22,140
gonna sustain itself and it's going to

1395
00:59:26,329 --> 00:59:24,299
grow I know sometimes during

1396
00:59:28,849 --> 00:59:26,339
Thanksgiving as you see or Christmas or

1397
00:59:31,370 --> 00:59:28,859
other holidays the in-laws can be a good

1398
00:59:32,930 --> 00:59:31,380
and a bad thing can't if Julius if

1399
00:59:34,250 --> 00:59:32,940
Julian Barnes is the uncle you don't

1400
00:59:36,289 --> 00:59:34,260
want to turn up I think you're the uncle

1401
00:59:37,549 --> 00:59:36,299
that you do want to turn off I hope I'll

1402
00:59:39,829 --> 00:59:37,559
be judged the in law that people look

1403
00:59:41,329 --> 00:59:39,839
forward to seeing you know yes yeah you

1404
00:59:45,490 --> 00:59:41,339
bring the cool presence and give her the

1405
00:59:47,390 --> 00:59:45,500
beers that's it exactly I bring liquor

1406
00:59:49,010 --> 00:59:47,400
let's get to some lesson our questions

1407
00:59:50,450 --> 00:59:49,020
to finish up and these jump all over

1408
00:59:52,849 --> 00:59:50,460
which is great

1409
00:59:54,109 --> 00:59:52,859
um first up from Stacy Stacy Says there

1410
00:59:56,210 --> 00:59:54,119
seems to be a lot of similar

1411
00:59:58,490 --> 00:59:56,220
similarities between modern encounters

1412
01:00:01,549 --> 00:59:58,500
with aliens and folkloric encounters

1413
01:00:03,170 --> 01:00:01,559
with ghosts bedroom visitations chills

1414
01:00:05,210 --> 01:00:03,180
vibrations The Hitchhiker can affect

1415
01:00:07,069 --> 01:00:05,220
what is your opinion regarding the

1416
01:00:08,930 --> 01:00:07,079
similarities and differences between

1417
01:00:11,809 --> 01:00:08,940
ghosts and aliens do you think there

1418
01:00:14,990 --> 01:00:11,819
could be one and the same phenomenon yes

1419
01:00:16,609 --> 01:00:15,000
I do I absolutely do you know we need to

1420
01:00:18,530 --> 01:00:16,619
put labels on things in order to

1421
01:00:22,329 --> 01:00:18,540
communicate with one another so somebody

1422
01:00:26,210 --> 01:00:22,339
might say ghost visitor Poltergeist

1423
01:00:30,230 --> 01:00:26,220
alien encrypted unknown entity Spirit

1424
01:00:31,849 --> 01:00:30,240
angel demon you name it we are trying to

1425
01:00:33,650 --> 01:00:31,859
describe the unknown we're on a key

1426
01:00:36,109 --> 01:00:33,660
we're on our knees peeking through a

1427
01:00:37,609 --> 01:00:36,119
keyhole and and and and putting a name

1428
01:00:40,190 --> 01:00:37,619
on what we see and there's nothing wrong

1429
01:00:43,069 --> 01:00:40,200
with that we need to describe this

1430
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:43,079
phenomena in such a way that it bets our

1431
01:00:48,650 --> 01:00:46,319
ability to have an exchange uh but yes I

1432
01:00:51,650 --> 01:00:48,660
would say it's absolutely possible and

1433
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:51,660
back in my publishing days before I uh

1434
01:00:56,870 --> 01:00:54,480
wrote and delivered lectures and

1435
01:00:58,670 --> 01:00:56,880
presentations full time as I have for

1436
01:01:00,410 --> 01:00:58,680
some years now

1437
01:01:02,809 --> 01:01:00,420
um I was a publisher for many many years

1438
01:01:05,329 --> 01:01:02,819
and I published a book by uh Jacques

1439
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:05,339
valet which was called wonders in the

1440
01:01:11,530 --> 01:01:08,880
sky which was a comparison of ancient

1441
01:01:15,049 --> 01:01:11,540
and contemporary

1442
01:01:17,870 --> 01:01:15,059
UFO accounts uh to put that term on it

1443
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:17,880
but you could and to some degree within

1444
01:01:22,210 --> 01:01:20,640
the folds of that book will be found you

1445
01:01:25,370 --> 01:01:22,220
could create a comparative record

1446
01:01:28,910 --> 01:01:25,380
between so-called Ghost Encounters and

1447
01:01:31,490 --> 01:01:28,920
visitor encounters and and and find deep

1448
01:01:34,730 --> 01:01:31,500
points of correlation so I think that

1449
01:01:36,829 --> 01:01:34,740
that discussion is very important

1450
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:36,839
uh following on from that a really good

1451
01:01:40,430 --> 01:01:38,880
question from Newman and Newman gives a

1452
01:01:42,049 --> 01:01:40,440
lot about context with has as well and

1453
01:01:44,690 --> 01:01:42,059
they always make sense so I'll read that

1454
01:01:47,630 --> 01:01:44,700
out to why do you think higher beings

1455
01:01:49,549 --> 01:01:47,640
seem to follow overly strange protocols

1456
01:01:52,370 --> 01:01:49,559
when they communicate with us and for

1457
01:01:54,410 --> 01:01:52,380
example uh presenting themselves with

1458
01:01:56,270 --> 01:01:54,420
strange avatars such as hooded beings

1459
01:01:58,370 --> 01:01:56,280
Jim semivan and Whitley strieber have

1460
01:02:00,410 --> 01:01:58,380
both said as such or as a woman of

1461
01:02:02,990 --> 01:02:00,420
Marian appearance like the lady in the

1462
01:02:05,210 --> 01:02:03,000
bledso case or requiring people to

1463
01:02:08,270 --> 01:02:05,220
perform special kinds of rituals like

1464
01:02:10,370 --> 01:02:08,280
Seance meditation or ce5

1465
01:02:12,770 --> 01:02:10,380
are these protocols rather to be

1466
01:02:15,470 --> 01:02:12,780
understood as having an intent to change

1467
01:02:17,390 --> 01:02:15,480
the behavior of the contactee rather

1468
01:02:18,950 --> 01:02:17,400
than being a mere technical means to

1469
01:02:20,750 --> 01:02:18,960
initiate contact

1470
01:02:22,849 --> 01:02:20,760
that's a wonderful question and there's

1471
01:02:24,770 --> 01:02:22,859
so much to unpack there

1472
01:02:26,630 --> 01:02:24,780
um what I would say is that first of all

1473
01:02:28,849 --> 01:02:26,640
I think another of the possibilities

1474
01:02:33,410 --> 01:02:28,859
that we are facing at this cultural

1475
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:33,420
moment is that we may require less and

1476
01:02:41,630 --> 01:02:37,200
less of the ritual so to speak in order

1477
01:02:43,789 --> 01:02:41,640
to document these experiences the very

1478
01:02:45,710 --> 01:02:43,799
belief in the possibility of something

1479
01:02:50,569 --> 01:02:45,720
seems to

1480
01:02:53,329 --> 01:02:50,579
open up an onrush of similar and related

1481
01:02:54,650 --> 01:02:53,339
experiences now of course if you're

1482
01:02:56,690 --> 01:02:54,660
looking at it from a strictly

1483
01:02:58,609 --> 01:02:56,700
materialist social science perspective

1484
01:03:01,549 --> 01:02:58,619
you would say oh well see it's just the

1485
01:03:03,170 --> 01:03:01,559
power of suggestion or what have you

1486
01:03:04,849 --> 01:03:03,180
um although in other context when I

1487
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:04,859
write about the power of suggestion as I

1488
01:03:09,289 --> 01:03:06,720
often do my critics say there's no such

1489
01:03:11,589 --> 01:03:09,299
thing but it always comes into play when

1490
01:03:15,470 --> 01:03:11,599
it's a useful excuse to explain away

1491
01:03:17,990 --> 01:03:15,480
metaphysical or paranormal phenomena so

1492
01:03:21,289 --> 01:03:18,000
it must be granted that that that's the

1493
01:03:23,089 --> 01:03:21,299
counter but regardless it's fascinating

1494
01:03:26,510 --> 01:03:23,099
the manner in which ideas and

1495
01:03:28,849 --> 01:03:26,520
experiences go viral so to speak Kenneth

1496
01:03:31,970 --> 01:03:28,859
Arnold's cites something in Washington

1497
01:03:34,430 --> 01:03:31,980
state in 1947 and suddenly the same

1498
01:03:37,309 --> 01:03:34,440
thing is going on in Los Angeles

1499
01:03:38,569 --> 01:03:37,319
Washington DC New York City and so forth

1500
01:03:40,609 --> 01:03:38,579
and so on

1501
01:03:42,289 --> 01:03:40,619
um and maybe because it's just

1502
01:03:44,210 --> 01:03:42,299
empirically occurring at that moment

1503
01:03:45,950 --> 01:03:44,220
which is something that many journalists

1504
01:03:47,930 --> 01:03:45,960
just prime a face you want to take off

1505
01:03:50,870 --> 01:03:47,940
the table but the fact is that's

1506
01:03:53,150 --> 01:03:50,880
empiricism uh you can arrive at your

1507
01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:53,160
sociological theories as to why ideas go

1508
01:03:59,210 --> 01:03:56,160
viral but the fact is uh they do and

1509
01:04:01,849 --> 01:03:59,220
they could be due to events plain and

1510
01:04:03,710 --> 01:04:01,859
simple it seems to me that the belief in

1511
01:04:06,829 --> 01:04:03,720
the possibility of something

1512
01:04:09,410 --> 01:04:06,839
at bets the actual occurrence this has

1513
01:04:11,630 --> 01:04:09,420
been observed in ESP phenomena this has

1514
01:04:13,970 --> 01:04:11,640
been observed across the field of

1515
01:04:16,010 --> 01:04:13,980
placebo studies if it were not for

1516
01:04:17,930 --> 01:04:16,020
hopeful expectancy which is to say

1517
01:04:21,770 --> 01:04:17,940
belief there would be no Placebo

1518
01:04:24,109 --> 01:04:21,780
response at all and so the very fact

1519
01:04:27,770 --> 01:04:24,119
that we as a human Community are opening

1520
01:04:31,190 --> 01:04:27,780
up to these ideas might mean that ritual

1521
01:04:33,470 --> 01:04:31,200
becomes less and less necessary ritual

1522
01:04:36,650 --> 01:04:33,480
could be attached to just the cultural

1523
01:04:38,690 --> 01:04:36,660
reference points that an individual has

1524
01:04:41,450 --> 01:04:38,700
you know something suits people in a

1525
01:04:43,609 --> 01:04:41,460
certain time place culture and it's

1526
01:04:46,490 --> 01:04:43,619
necessary in order to make sense of

1527
01:04:49,130 --> 01:04:46,500
something it's necessary in order to see

1528
01:04:50,109 --> 01:04:49,140
or experience something it has to reach

1529
01:04:53,750 --> 01:04:50,119
us

1530
01:04:57,109 --> 01:04:53,760
enfolded within the cultural

1531
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:57,119
reference points that we know it's

1532
01:05:02,510 --> 01:05:00,480
possible that right now we are requiring

1533
01:05:04,309 --> 01:05:02,520
a fewer and fewer such cultural

1534
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:04,319
reference points

1535
01:05:09,710 --> 01:05:07,440
question from Tree of Life asks as a

1536
01:05:12,289 --> 01:05:09,720
willingness or urge to believe in the

1537
01:05:16,849 --> 01:05:12,299
Unseen religion spirituality other life

1538
01:05:23,510 --> 01:05:20,170
I would say yes to that question because

1539
01:05:27,170 --> 01:05:23,520
we find across

1540
01:05:31,010 --> 01:05:27,180
the entire human story going back to

1541
01:05:34,730 --> 01:05:31,020
deepest Antiquity across every culture

1542
01:05:38,329 --> 01:05:34,740
from Polynesia to Siberia

1543
01:05:41,210 --> 01:05:38,339
a record of similar experiences for

1544
01:05:44,150 --> 01:05:41,220
example identifying and personifying

1545
01:05:47,390 --> 01:05:44,160
certain energies in nature calling these

1546
01:05:50,109 --> 01:05:47,400
things gods or deities or Messengers or

1547
01:05:53,690 --> 01:05:50,119
what have you seeking petitionary

1548
01:05:55,990 --> 01:05:53,700
relationships seeking to enter into some

1549
01:05:59,210 --> 01:05:56,000
kind of communion with these

1550
01:06:01,849 --> 01:05:59,220
personified energies that's just one of

1551
01:06:05,450 --> 01:06:01,859
many many such examples that dot the

1552
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:05,460
human story across time culture

1553
01:06:12,530 --> 01:06:08,640
geography language custom and when you

1554
01:06:15,950 --> 01:06:12,540
start to see these common practices that

1555
01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:15,960
cut across the whole human story I do

1556
01:06:20,510 --> 01:06:18,000
think that that's a scent trail of some

1557
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:20,520
kind of universal truth uh it's

1558
01:06:25,490 --> 01:06:22,799
remarkable to me when you find parallel

1559
01:06:28,549 --> 01:06:25,500
insights among cultures both

1560
01:06:31,130 --> 01:06:28,559
contemporary and ancient that had no

1561
01:06:34,190 --> 01:06:31,140
other commonality whatsoever and yet

1562
01:06:37,490 --> 01:06:34,200
they have certain parallel insights for

1563
01:06:40,069 --> 01:06:37,500
example identifying a snake or a serpent

1564
01:06:46,609 --> 01:06:40,079
as a

1565
01:06:48,770 --> 01:06:46,619
symbol of wisdom of Awakening of higher

1566
01:06:51,470 --> 01:06:48,780
knowledge you find that among the Maya

1567
01:06:55,309 --> 01:06:51,480
you find that among the Hebrews you find

1568
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:55,319
that uh in the South Pacific uh you find

1569
01:07:00,410 --> 01:06:57,599
that in different parts of uh Asia East

1570
01:07:02,510 --> 01:07:00,420
Asia it's extraordinary

1571
01:07:05,450 --> 01:07:02,520
um one can't bypass these things it goes

1572
01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:05,460
back to testimony and effect testimony

1573
01:07:09,109 --> 01:07:06,960
becoming a record

1574
01:07:11,150 --> 01:07:09,119
I'll give a little shout out to Dan who

1575
01:07:13,250 --> 01:07:11,160
I think you met at the conference in New

1576
01:07:15,109 --> 01:07:13,260
York in November

1577
01:07:17,089 --> 01:07:15,119
um Dan comes on the podcast and provides

1578
01:07:19,069 --> 01:07:17,099
analysis and critique on various parts

1579
01:07:20,930 --> 01:07:19,079
of the UFO subject he got a tattoo today

1580
01:07:22,130 --> 01:07:20,940
which is a serpent and he's going to get

1581
01:07:24,770 --> 01:07:22,140
it filled and as he goes around his

1582
01:07:26,690 --> 01:07:24,780
travels which are kind of sweet I've got

1583
01:07:30,289 --> 01:07:26,700
a serpent somewhere here oh here where

1584
01:07:32,089 --> 01:07:30,299
is he where is you know I forget I get

1585
01:07:34,069 --> 01:07:32,099
tattooed oh yeah here we go I got the

1586
01:07:35,150 --> 01:07:34,079
Aruba Rose over here if you're not the

1587
01:07:36,829 --> 01:07:35,160
conference if you're going to the

1588
01:07:38,510 --> 01:07:36,839
conference on the 3rd of December Dan's

1589
01:07:40,670 --> 01:07:38,520
traveling back over for that one too in

1590
01:07:41,750 --> 01:07:40,680
New York so if anyone in the listing is

1591
01:07:43,730 --> 01:07:41,760
going to it I know a few listeners

1592
01:07:45,770 --> 01:07:43,740
bought tickets in the last few days

1593
01:07:47,270 --> 01:07:45,780
um I can't wait I'll be there I won't be

1594
01:07:49,010 --> 01:07:47,280
speaking I spoke at the previous one

1595
01:07:52,010 --> 01:07:49,020
I'll be there with my partner Jacqueline

1596
01:07:54,230 --> 01:07:52,020
Castel at this conference Leslie will be

1597
01:07:56,089 --> 01:07:54,240
there Whitley will be there Jeff

1598
01:07:57,890 --> 01:07:56,099
will be there many others it's just

1599
01:07:59,990 --> 01:07:57,900
going to be the Winston Christopher

1600
01:08:02,150 --> 01:08:00,000
melon is going to be that which yeah is

1601
01:08:03,109 --> 01:08:02,160
that this is not to be missed absolutely

1602
01:08:04,849 --> 01:08:03,119
not

1603
01:08:07,609 --> 01:08:04,859
um last two questions first up from

1604
01:08:10,309 --> 01:08:07,619
Barry Barry asks if you believe the

1605
01:08:12,049 --> 01:08:10,319
entity known as lamb has manifested more

1606
01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:12,059
than once other than for Alistar

1607
01:08:16,970 --> 01:08:14,160
Crowley's Conjuring this is when I had

1608
01:08:19,309 --> 01:08:16,980
to go and look up myself I love that

1609
01:08:23,090 --> 01:08:19,319
question and I saw it on social media

1610
01:08:27,110 --> 01:08:23,100
and thank you Barry uh Crowley the Great

1611
01:08:30,229 --> 01:08:27,120
British uh artist magician occultist uh

1612
01:08:34,910 --> 01:08:30,239
record supported being in contact with a

1613
01:08:37,550 --> 01:08:34,920
phenomenal being called lamb l-a-m and I

1614
01:08:39,169 --> 01:08:37,560
guess this was in the 19 and and forgive

1615
01:08:42,669 --> 01:08:39,179
me if anybody if I'm getting the date

1616
01:08:46,669 --> 01:08:42,679
wrong but I think it was in the 1930s

1617
01:08:52,430 --> 01:08:46,679
he sketched a very Vivid haunting

1618
01:08:56,390 --> 01:08:52,440
portrait of lamb this otherworldly

1619
01:08:58,390 --> 01:08:56,400
phenomenal entity with whom he was in

1620
01:09:01,610 --> 01:08:58,400
contact for a Time

1621
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:01,620
and you'd just be astonished to look at

1622
01:09:06,289 --> 01:09:03,839
this drawing and say my God that's the

1623
01:09:10,370 --> 01:09:06,299
cover of Whitley strieber's communion it

1624
01:09:12,769 --> 01:09:10,380
is the image itself of the Grays uh the

1625
01:09:14,289 --> 01:09:12,779
visitors as described in Whitley's work

1626
01:09:18,169 --> 01:09:14,299
and other work

1627
01:09:21,050 --> 01:09:18,179
uh a generation plus uh before such an

1628
01:09:23,090 --> 01:09:21,060
image was popularized and if that

1629
01:09:25,010 --> 01:09:23,100
doesn't stop a person cold in his or her

1630
01:09:27,709 --> 01:09:25,020
tracks nothing will it's very

1631
01:09:29,510 --> 01:09:27,719
interesting I do have to add

1632
01:09:31,729 --> 01:09:29,520
um I was speaking to Dan about this

1633
01:09:34,669 --> 01:09:31,739
before and he mentioned that there has

1634
01:09:37,010 --> 01:09:34,679
some who would say that Crowley or

1635
01:09:39,590 --> 01:09:37,020
Crowley was actually manifesting himself

1636
01:09:41,209 --> 01:09:39,600
and it was the version of he himself he

1637
01:09:44,090 --> 01:09:41,219
saw in the mirror well he was under

1638
01:09:46,729 --> 01:09:44,100
various gateway drugs psychedelics for

1639
01:09:48,289 --> 01:09:46,739
for the the technique he was trying to

1640
01:09:50,150 --> 01:09:48,299
use so there's always that possibility

1641
01:09:51,890 --> 01:09:50,160
and it's always fair to when I'm talking

1642
01:09:52,970 --> 01:09:51,900
about both sides of the fence yeah if

1643
01:09:54,709 --> 01:09:52,980
that's something you've got real

1644
01:09:57,709 --> 01:09:54,719
interest and I've got to mention that so

1645
01:10:00,770 --> 01:09:57,719
oh it's a very fair possibility

1646
01:10:03,229 --> 01:10:00,780
um though still so extraordinary that he

1647
01:10:06,050 --> 01:10:03,239
would construct an image emerging from

1648
01:10:08,709 --> 01:10:06,060
his own subconscious that matched the

1649
01:10:12,350 --> 01:10:08,719
image that was encountered by a man

1650
01:10:14,630 --> 01:10:12,360
generation later plus as well as others

1651
01:10:17,030 --> 01:10:14,640
so you know one time the poet James

1652
01:10:18,470 --> 01:10:17,040
Merrill who used a Ouija board was asked

1653
01:10:19,610 --> 01:10:18,480
well look you know what if all this

1654
01:10:21,890 --> 01:10:19,620
stuff that you're encountering through

1655
01:10:23,689 --> 01:10:21,900
the Ouija board is just from your own

1656
01:10:25,850 --> 01:10:23,699
subconscious and he said look it could

1657
01:10:28,490 --> 01:10:25,860
be but if that's the case how

1658
01:10:30,530 --> 01:10:28,500
extraordinary do the mediums become

1659
01:10:32,570 --> 01:10:30,540
and I'm going to finish off with a

1660
01:10:34,729 --> 01:10:32,580
question from Jeff and I'm going to live

1661
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:34,739
paraphrase and edit this as I see it

1662
01:10:38,450 --> 01:10:36,239
because Jeff gave me a lot of context

1663
01:10:41,390 --> 01:10:38,460
and funny you mentioned Wikipedia

1664
01:10:43,790 --> 01:10:41,400
earlier and this talks about uh the the

1665
01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:43,800
group gorilla skepticism on Wikipedia

1666
01:10:47,750 --> 01:10:45,840
who are an organized group who distort

1667
01:10:50,990 --> 01:10:47,760
the world's understanding as Jeff says

1668
01:10:53,390 --> 01:10:51,000
including uh the UFOs and alternative

1669
01:10:55,610 --> 01:10:53,400
medicine crop circles dowsing mediums

1670
01:10:57,169 --> 01:10:55,620
remote viewing and such

1671
01:10:58,970 --> 01:10:57,179
um does Mitch see any hope that this

1672
01:11:00,830 --> 01:10:58,980
pernicious influence can be turned

1673
01:11:03,110 --> 01:11:00,840
around given that Wikipedia is the

1674
01:11:05,689 --> 01:11:03,120
world's go-to place to make a first

1675
01:11:07,610 --> 01:11:05,699
inquiry about some new topic and is

1676
01:11:10,490 --> 01:11:07,620
there anything individuals can do about

1677
01:11:12,169 --> 01:11:10,500
this to started coverage in Wikipedia of

1678
01:11:13,930 --> 01:11:12,179
any topic that's not endorsed by

1679
01:11:16,790 --> 01:11:13,940
mainstream science

1680
01:11:19,550 --> 01:11:16,800
that's a a wonderful question that's

1681
01:11:25,970 --> 01:11:19,560
well framed that's well put

1682
01:11:31,010 --> 01:11:28,010
is

1683
01:11:31,669 --> 01:11:31,020
as I alluded earlier

1684
01:11:33,350 --> 01:11:31,679
um

1685
01:11:36,290 --> 01:11:33,360
understaffed

1686
01:11:41,810 --> 01:11:36,300
uh lacking in appropriate editorial

1687
01:11:46,450 --> 01:11:41,820
supervision and that group is uh so

1688
01:11:51,050 --> 01:11:46,460
activist oriented uh so large so

1689
01:11:53,649 --> 01:11:51,060
energetic so well organized and I would

1690
01:11:57,910 --> 01:11:53,659
say so

1691
01:12:03,830 --> 01:11:57,920
corrupt in a single-minded polemical

1692
01:12:07,310 --> 01:12:03,840
dedication to dispelling diffuse topics

1693
01:12:10,490 --> 01:12:07,320
uh of which its members have only the

1694
01:12:15,610 --> 01:12:10,500
most cursory understanding that no

1695
01:12:18,169 --> 01:12:15,620
change will occur uh within the ordinary

1696
01:12:21,530 --> 01:12:18,179
functioning of crowdsourcing that

1697
01:12:24,229 --> 01:12:21,540
prevails on Wikipedia the only change

1698
01:12:28,490 --> 01:12:24,239
that will occur will have to emerge from

1699
01:12:32,709 --> 01:12:28,500
within Wikipedia itself if there is an

1700
01:12:36,050 --> 01:12:32,719
editor who makes the determination that

1701
01:12:37,310 --> 01:12:36,060
one group waging a kind of activist

1702
01:12:40,729 --> 01:12:37,320
campaign

1703
01:12:44,270 --> 01:12:40,739
ought not be able to write reference

1704
01:12:50,030 --> 01:12:44,280
history I'll give you a funny example I

1705
01:12:54,229 --> 01:12:50,040
gave a talk in January of 2022 on ESP at

1706
01:12:58,370 --> 01:12:54,239
a conference in Miami and in that talk I

1707
01:13:01,130 --> 01:12:58,380
mentioned that as of this presentation a

1708
01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:01,140
series of experiments within UF within

1709
01:13:05,570 --> 01:13:03,360
ESP research called the gansfeld

1710
01:13:08,209 --> 01:13:05,580
experiments a very highly respected

1711
01:13:10,790 --> 01:13:08,219
series of experiments that went on in

1712
01:13:14,570 --> 01:13:10,800
the 70s and 80s testing for mental

1713
01:13:17,870 --> 01:13:14,580
telepathy are described on Wikipedia as

1714
01:13:20,270 --> 01:13:17,880
pseudoscience without sourcing and I

1715
01:13:22,370 --> 01:13:20,280
said if if if if after all the evidence

1716
01:13:24,530 --> 01:13:22,380
I've provided that can be described as

1717
01:13:26,990 --> 01:13:24,540
pseudoscience then that term itself has

1718
01:13:29,330 --> 01:13:27,000
lost all meaning well lo and behold if

1719
01:13:31,370 --> 01:13:29,340
you go upon if you go on Wikipedia right

1720
01:13:34,189 --> 01:13:31,380
now go to the gansfeld experiments

1721
01:13:36,770 --> 01:13:34,199
article again this is crowdsourcing so I

1722
01:13:39,290 --> 01:13:36,780
have to say as of this presentation it

1723
01:13:41,050 --> 01:13:39,300
may change by the time you know we're

1724
01:13:44,510 --> 01:13:41,060
done with this podcast

1725
01:13:48,590 --> 01:13:44,520
but as of this presentation

1726
01:13:50,689 --> 01:13:48,600
uh you'll find some four or five odd uh

1727
01:13:53,090 --> 01:13:50,699
reference notes suddenly magically

1728
01:13:57,350 --> 01:13:53,100
appended to the reference that I called

1729
01:14:01,070 --> 01:13:57,360
out the notes all go to sources uh

1730
01:14:04,070 --> 01:14:01,080
magazines books articles published by

1731
01:14:06,649 --> 01:14:04,080
um a arch skeptical a professionally

1732
01:14:08,750 --> 01:14:06,659
skeptical press called Prometheus books

1733
01:14:10,550 --> 01:14:08,760
in the town of Buffalo New York which

1734
01:14:13,010 --> 01:14:10,560
has been around for a long time and

1735
01:14:16,250 --> 01:14:13,020
their basic mission is to publish works

1736
01:14:19,130 --> 01:14:16,260
of polemical skepticism so it would be

1737
01:14:22,070 --> 01:14:19,140
as if you were writing an article and

1738
01:14:25,010 --> 01:14:22,080
all your reference notes went back to

1739
01:14:27,169 --> 01:14:25,020
one widely known partisan Source or the

1740
01:14:29,390 --> 01:14:27,179
output of that Source sometimes in the

1741
01:14:31,850 --> 01:14:29,400
form of an article a pamphlet a magazine

1742
01:14:33,890 --> 01:14:31,860
an online piece a book what have you but

1743
01:14:35,810 --> 01:14:33,900
they all go back to these sources and I

1744
01:14:39,290 --> 01:14:35,820
would venture that the at least the

1745
01:14:41,630 --> 01:14:39,300
plurality of sources uh that seek to

1746
01:14:44,030 --> 01:14:41,640
render skeptical arguments in opposition

1747
01:14:46,970 --> 01:14:44,040
to many of these widely diffused topics

1748
01:14:50,390 --> 01:14:46,980
or our reference to Prometheus or the

1749
01:14:53,930 --> 01:14:50,400
output from Prometheus so for example if

1750
01:14:56,149 --> 01:14:53,940
an ethical editor at Wikipedia were to

1751
01:14:58,669 --> 01:14:56,159
stroke his or her chin and say well yeah

1752
01:15:00,410 --> 01:14:58,679
that is the case I think we're going to

1753
01:15:03,110 --> 01:15:00,420
have to start to you know look at some

1754
01:15:04,850 --> 01:15:03,120
of these articles identify you know some

1755
01:15:06,590 --> 01:15:04,860
of the kind of repeat players who are

1756
01:15:08,390 --> 01:15:06,600
revising these things identify the

1757
01:15:10,370 --> 01:15:08,400
sources it would be a very time

1758
01:15:13,250 --> 01:15:10,380
consuming exercise and not an easy

1759
01:15:15,709 --> 01:15:13,260
exercise but that kind of editorial

1760
01:15:17,930 --> 01:15:15,719
supervision is the only thing I can see

1761
01:15:21,350 --> 01:15:17,940
in the short term that is going to help

1762
01:15:23,510 --> 01:15:21,360
fix this problem which is why by the way

1763
01:15:26,510 --> 01:15:23,520
it behooves those of us in the seeking

1764
01:15:28,490 --> 01:15:26,520
Community to speak very clearly maturely

1765
01:15:30,709 --> 01:15:28,500
and intelligently about this problem

1766
01:15:33,470 --> 01:15:30,719
because we're not going to win any

1767
01:15:35,810 --> 01:15:33,480
friends uh among the gorilla Skeptics

1768
01:15:38,330 --> 01:15:35,820
they have their mission and they are

1769
01:15:42,669 --> 01:15:38,340
going to continue at it in a very

1770
01:15:44,290 --> 01:15:42,679
one-track fashion but whether there are

1771
01:15:48,410 --> 01:15:44,300
supervisors

1772
01:15:51,890 --> 01:15:48,420
editors intellects at Wikipedia and it's

1773
01:15:54,410 --> 01:15:51,900
very opaque uh but whether there are

1774
01:15:57,290 --> 01:15:54,420
um they might hear this and and and and

1775
01:15:59,390 --> 01:15:57,300
elect to

1776
01:16:01,430 --> 01:15:59,400
um to bring greater scrutiny and

1777
01:16:03,050 --> 01:16:01,440
supervision some of these articles as it

1778
01:16:05,330 --> 01:16:03,060
currently stands I don't contribute to

1779
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:05,340
Wikipedia at all it's a waste of time

1780
01:16:11,270 --> 01:16:08,640
because the crowdsourcing model is just

1781
01:16:14,570 --> 01:16:11,280
too heavily uh bent against us there's

1782
01:16:16,550 --> 01:16:14,580
just only so many hours in a day and

1783
01:16:18,830 --> 01:16:16,560
um some of these people seem to have

1784
01:16:19,850 --> 01:16:18,840
Limitless amounts of time to spend on

1785
01:16:22,430 --> 01:16:19,860
this

1786
01:16:24,649 --> 01:16:22,440
well match whether it's your hypnotic

1787
01:16:26,270 --> 01:16:24,659
background or your eloquency in speaking

1788
01:16:28,370 --> 01:16:26,280
it's been fascinating listen to you

1789
01:16:30,770 --> 01:16:28,380
thank you um your latest book on certain

1790
01:16:32,930 --> 01:16:30,780
places is available to pre-order now you

1791
01:16:35,270 --> 01:16:32,940
mentioned it is released on November 8th

1792
01:16:37,729 --> 01:16:35,280
in print digital and audiobook form

1793
01:16:39,410 --> 01:16:37,739
which is becoming increasingly popular I

1794
01:16:40,970 --> 01:16:39,420
would encourage folks to go please and

1795
01:16:43,010 --> 01:16:40,980
check that one out where would be the

1796
01:16:44,810 --> 01:16:43,020
best place for them to pick that up

1797
01:16:46,610 --> 01:16:44,820
oh they could pick it up anywhere they

1798
01:16:49,850 --> 01:16:46,620
buy books whether it's Amazon or

1799
01:16:52,250 --> 01:16:49,860
anyplace else uh to stay up to date with

1800
01:16:55,370 --> 01:16:52,260
me I'm on Twitter at Mitch Horowitz I'm

1801
01:16:57,830 --> 01:16:55,380
on Instagram at midraro it's 23. I have

1802
01:17:00,649 --> 01:16:57,840
a website Mitch horowitz.com which I

1803
01:17:02,930 --> 01:17:00,659
quite love but I'm I'm I'm very tardy

1804
01:17:04,970 --> 01:17:02,940
and updating the things so if you want

1805
01:17:07,010 --> 01:17:04,980
to stay up to date about appearances and

1806
01:17:09,290 --> 01:17:07,020
things of that nature social media right

1807
01:17:10,669 --> 01:17:09,300
now is the best way to go and all of

1808
01:17:12,950 --> 01:17:10,679
those links will be in the description

1809
01:17:14,450 --> 01:17:12,960
for this podcast as well so Mitch thank

1810
01:17:17,630 --> 01:17:14,460
you very much for joining me and I hope

1811
01:17:20,330 --> 01:17:17,640
in the future for sure really enjoyed it

1812
01:17:22,010 --> 01:17:20,340
thank you that is all for this week's

1813
01:17:24,350 --> 01:17:22,020
show thank you very much for listening

1814
01:17:26,870 --> 01:17:24,360
please remember to leave the podcast a

1815
01:17:29,390 --> 01:17:26,880
review on your chosen platform you can

1816
01:17:31,610 --> 01:17:29,400
like retweet And subscribe that would

1817
01:17:33,530 --> 01:17:31,620
all be very much appreciated the shows

1818
01:17:35,390 --> 01:17:33,540
are being uploaded onto YouTube as we

1819
01:17:38,470 --> 01:17:35,400
speak more and more you can sign up at

1820
01:17:44,030 --> 01:17:41,750
ad free as well please get in touch on

1821
01:17:47,229 --> 01:17:44,040
Twitter Facebook Instagram I'm not uf4

1822
01:17:50,510 --> 01:17:47,239
podcast of course on Twitter it's at UFO

1823
01:17:52,070 --> 01:17:50,520
uapam and again folks as always keep

1824
01:17:57,229 --> 01:17:52,080
looking up you never know what you might

1825
01:17:57,239 --> 01:18:20,800
it

1826
01:18:20,810 --> 01:18:27,530
[Music]

1827
01:18:27,540 --> 01:19:01,910
foreign

1828
01:20:48,169 --> 01:19:07,050
[Music]